OT A question regarding a culture I'm working on

[Starhawk]

Hey ya'll long time no post, well some of you may remember me and my story "From the Beginning" a while back others might not.

Well here I have a few questions for ya'll.

Well the main protagonist nation is Icara, an Empire that we would consider neo-feudal/fascist in make up.

The Empire is ruled for the most part by a man called the Praetor who is nearly absolute ruler of the Empire, directly under him are the High Lords (made up of 6 members) under them is Council made up of the Nobility (only some of these positions can be apointed by the Praetor, the rest are selected by the other nobility and only a handful of even those positions are heredetary).

The Praetor apoints the High Lords, and controls the state's general direction regarding peace/war/religion and can make demands upon the High Lords and council if it is for the good of the Empire. He is the only one who can authorize the deployment of his Personal Guard (a force of 10,000 elite soldiers including armored regiments and airborn forces, and later a warfleet of 100 ships of the line).

The High Lords: These men and women control overall decisions regarding military action, tax rates and draft rate (yes the Empire has an ongoing draft) throughout the Empire (I.E they can say that your tax can be NO MORE then X amount and your draft rate can not exceed X amount, or the reverse they can raise the overall bar of tax and draft throughout the Empire)

The Council: They make most of the "civil level" decisions, each Count/Countess rules a single world, and each Duke/Duchess a single star system in which they can set they are virtually absolute rulers as long as their rule does not violate the dictates of the Praetor and High Lords.


Ethnicity: The Icaran "race" is actually made up of three seperate "races" by modern standards, Caucasians, Asians, and those of blended race all are considered "Icaran" by the law and tradition.

Language: The Icaran Language is a mix of European and Asiatic languages that all sort of blended together over millenia of intermingling.

Religion: The Empire does NOT believe in freedom of religion per se, the High Lords and State Church dictate what faiths are legal within the Empire, currently the two legal faiths (original to the Empire) are:

The Path (state religion): A complex monotheistic faith that has both eastern and western philosophy and is taught in school and throughout Icaran life. It can draw some roots to Christinaity however much of it would be equally alien to Christians.

It teaches discipline of mind and body, loyalty to community and state and preaches all souls go to hell for cleansing and that one can speed their journey through hell by service and loyalty to community and Empire.

Unlike Christianity sex is not taboo, nor is premarital sex only loveless and casual sex is taboo.

The human body is considered a temple and a symbol of God's work which creates an odd casualness about nudity within Icaran society that would throw the Puritanical Christians of past millenia.

Neo-Buddism: Although the Icarans consider themselves a single people many of those descended from the Asiatic populace still follow the tenants of Buddism with some slight changes over the millenia


Every day life: From their earliest years an Icaran child is taught loyalty to family, community and Empire. They are taught that a life lost in service to the Empire is never a life wasted, and a life spent in service to the community is a life to be cherished.
As a child goes threw school they are placed in "cadres" which is a group of children that will spend their entire school life together in the same classes and in the same community and barracks (three months of every year sees children living at school in Barracks)

Icarans are taught that their bodies are temple's, work's of art to glorify their creator and so in school Icaran children undergo a LOT of physical training (think bootcamp for 10 YEARS) including martial arts, general PE and dance (dance is a symbol of education and culture). This physical work ethic continues throughout an Icaran's life unless illness or age no longer allow it, a fat Icaran who is not ill or incapable of exercise is doomed to ridicule and scorn throughout their life.

Icaran schools also raise children with full knowledge of sexuality and anatomy but also teach restraint and temperance (partly out of religious disaproval of promiscuity and partly out of prudence to prevent STDs and pregnancies that a family can't support).

Icarans are considered adult at the age of 13 and are given three years 'grace' in which they can further their education if they choose, or simply live a bit of a relaxed life (within culturally acceptable bounds), they are encouraged to remain with their family but not required to do so by law. At the age of 16 they are required by tradition and law to get a job or return to academy (think college/OCS put together) if they do not return to Academy and do not find a job the state finds a job for them (basically you might end up with anything from sewage disposal to fast food restaurant or you might be called to service in the military).

Although most Icarans do not serve in the armed forces such service is considered one of the highest callings in the Empire and every Icaran shows respect to a soldier in uniform no matter that soldier's age or gender. Anyone enlisting in or called into Military service must serve no less then 25 years in uniform unless otherwise discharged by the service (this only happens dishonorably or if you are injured beyond capability of even a desk job which is listed as an honorable discharge) and those who are dishonorably discharge often face worse fates outside of the service.

(space era): With the discovery of a process named "sustain" Icaran lifespans were increased to roughly 300 years average (some live up to 420) with the interesting and unintended byproduct of second and third generation children being born with increased strenght reflexes and senses.
Adding to the already physically demanding Icaran society and you end up with the average Icaran being twice as fast and almost twice as strong as a modern human, with FAR better vision, hearing and smell then current humans.


Now here are the questions for yah:

1: Being that the Icarans are primarily white/asian/mixed race what do you think their cultural reaction would be if they came across say a black or hispanic person?
The reason I ask is because my first thought was that they would doubt said person was even human until extensive genetic testing proved otherwise.

2: Do you think a culture with the kind of physical regime that the Icarans have would accept a culture that does not have that kind of requirement on it's people?

3: How do you think the Icarans would handle say modern Christianity or modern atheism?
3a: How do you think modern Christians would respond to Icarans (try not to be offensive, and if you can't be unoffensive feel free not to answer)
3b:How do you think modern Atheists would respond to an Icaran?

4: What do you think the Icarans would think of a free and democratic society?
The reason I ask this one especially is because I think they would see it as weak and chaotic but I wanted to know what you think the level inate hostility would be.

5: Would you see the Empire as evil?
I ask this because with the prototype of this society I created for a series of short stories readers have said everything from
"They're a little racist and VERY harsh" to "They're a bunch of uncompromising expansionistic bastards who border on Nazi level brutality".

6: Not from a 'god bashing" point of view please (and if you can't answer without a God bashing remark then just don't answer) how do you think the faith of the Empire would shape it
(I have an idea but I don't want to seem like i'm throwing out a 2 dimensional stereotype so I'd like some other people's honest assessments)

7: Do you think an average Icaran would be happy?
I ask this because again with the prototype of this society I made for short stories I had it that the average Icaran was very happy given that crime was a rare thing and that they were practically born with a sense of purpose and community instilled in them by their society. And that societies assimilated by the Empire eventually blended and became content and loyal members of the Empire (after say 2 generations).

I look forward to your input because I am striving to create a society that is very REAL and alive, and not some 2d stereotypical society.

[Will]

Hmmm, I have the text of your story saved somewhere. I skimmed the first few parts and saved it because it seemed like it could be interesting, but I never did get around to it. Might have to dig it up, now that I'm not swamped with school and/or work constantly.

Anyway, some quick thoughts on your questions:

1: Being that the Icarans are primarily white/asian/mixed race what do you think their cultural reaction would be if they came across say a black or hispanic person?

I assume then that you are not including much of South Asia in with Asians. Indians, Burmese, Thai, Vietnamese, Cambodian, Laotian, Indonesian... all can be quite dark-skinned. I'm not sure that the assumption that individuals with darker skin would be considered a separate species would hold. I would imagine that they would be considered inferior and/or evil.

2: Do you think a culture with the kind of physical regime that the Icarans have would accept a culture that does not have that kind of requirement on it's people?

Probably not, at least not accept as equals. Tolerated, sure, but there will not be much respect there unless the other culture is in some other way superior (i.e. a culture of savants) to Icaran.

3: How do you think the Icarans would handle say modern Christianity or modern atheism?
3a: How do you think modern Christians would respond to Icarans (try not to be offensive, and if you can't be unoffensive feel free not to answer)
3b:How do you think modern Atheists would respond to an Icaran?

Depending on the fervor of religious adherence, I would guess Christianity would be considered actively hostile (as with the modern situation with the largely Christian West and the largely Muslim developing world). Atheism would probably be considered a minor annoyance or a benign perversion. The feelings would probably be mutual for modern Christianity and Icaran state religion. Less devout populations could probably co-exist without much conflict, but any real or perceived imbalance on either side could cause an eruption of hostilities. As for modern Atheists... I can't imagine that they would care about the religious practices of Icarans. They don't make all that much of a fuss now unless they're being targeted in some way.

4: What do you think the Icarans would think of a free and democratic society?

Probably what we think of a society like China's. "It'll never last, we're so much better, etc." ad nauseum.

5: Would you see the Empire as evil?

Evil? No. I wouldn't want to live under it, but if I grew up in it, I most likely wouldn't mind. It is vaguely reminiscent of Hobbes' Leviathan.

6: Not from a 'god bashing" point of view please (and if you can't answer without a God bashing remark then just don't answer) how do you think the faith of the Empire would shape it

I think you already covered most of it. Since presumably it's a mixture of Christianity and Buddhism, I couldn't imagine that there would be much of the anthropomorphized "personal God" beliefs of today, so "prayer" would most likely be replaced with "meditation". Can't think of any other major influences though.

7: Do you think an average Icaran would be happy?

Probably. Just the same as the average American.

[dogscoff]

Without addressing your points individually, but in answer to most of them:

It seems to me that the religion of your society is so tightly wrapped up with and controlled by the dictatorship that the average person within the society would have great difficulty distinguishing the two: Therefore something that attacks the State is also attacking God. Likewise, anything they regard as an affront to their deity would therefore be a threat to the State. This could very easily escalate into a "all that is not like us must be converted or eradicated" mentality. An atheist, for an example, would offend God by refusing to acknowledge his existence. By offending God he offends all Icarans, and would probably not be a popular person.

That's the danger of mixing politics and religion, which (imnsho) is where a lot of today's conflicts come from.

Of course, none of this means you shouldn't make your protagonists like that, it's just something to consider when writing them.

[Starhawk]

Wow I'm getting some good responses from you guys thanks

Okay so I do want an actual discussion here not just a one way chat so if it's alright with you I'll actually respond to your replies with more questions

I assume then that you are not including much of South Asia in with Asians. Indians, Burmese, Thai, Vietnamese, Cambodian, Laotian, Indonesian... all can be quite dark-skinned. I'm not sure that the assumption that individuals with darker skin would be considered a separate species would hold. I would imagine that they would be considered inferior and/or evil.

I guess this isn't a major spoiler as it will happen in the Prelude but most of Asia/India was wiped out by a war that takes place at the end of the 21st century, only the "Sino-Indian confederation" survived because of their overwhelming populations and by act of conspiracy only "true chinese" left on the ships that brought the population that is now part of the Icaran Empire.

So yeah when I say Asiatic I mean primarily Mandarin Chinese.

Do you think that the Icarans would first try to run genetic tests on those of another race to see if they were truly human or do you think their reply would pretty much be a.
"Screw you" followed by much gunfire?

Probably not, at least not accept as equals. Tolerated, sure, but there will not be much respect there unless the other culture is in some other way superior (i.e. a culture of savants) to Icaran.

Well I sort of was thinking of having it that the average Icaran pittied those of a "weaker" culture and would sort of feel obligated to trying to "help" said culture (i.e instating Icaran physical demands on the new citizens). Would that sound like an appropriate response or do you think Icarans would rather just avoid them altogether?

Dogscoff (your post is too long to make a single quote )

Well I figured it would be dangerous yes but not from the viewpoint of an Icaran (which the story will primarily be told from) which is part of the reason I'm asking a lot of questions before just randomly writing

Unlike my short stories on this board a book would give me much more chances to actually explore Icaran culture and society so I want to have a living breathing culture that has some good and some bad points.


So some more questions for ya'll:

How do you think Icarans would treat a newly conquered human world by their nature (not by act of plot).

In one of my earliest prototype stories Icaran FedSec soldiers (at the time called StateSec changed for obvious reasons SS abbreviation) would be deployed to take children away from their families (often kicking and screaming) and literally drag them into the Icaran schools where they would not see their parents again until the world was "cleansed" (i.e last generation pre-conquest died out).

They would also have no problem shooting rebels without any sort of warning or attempt at arrest, sometimes destroying entire towns that rebelled or resisted too heavily (I.e after their military is defeated armed Partisans are expected to lay down their arms or are instantly considered rebels/warcriminals)

To the Icarans dragging the kids to barracks was seen as "saving them" while destroying the rebels was seen merely as "securing their future and that of the Empire".


How do you think an average Icaran would behave in their normal life?

I sort of had it that besides being deeply religious and very active physically they are a lot like us in that there are loads of different personality types, attitudes, etc right down to one of the main characters remembering back to what we would call "highschool" when he embarassed himself in front of a group of female classmates.

I also in my prototypes sort of had it that they don't usually actually discuss their faith (they see it simply as something that is and not really needing of a lot of talk).

more questions to follow

[Will]

Actually, dogscoff does have a good point about a tightly integrated theocracy. Not sure how much that would be the case, since there technically are two religions. If there would be a huge reaction against Atheists for denying God, it would be reasonable to think that there would be a reaction against the Buddhist-inspired religion, for essentially having a very different concept of what exactly God is. For there to be minimal clashes, there would have to be several individuals that follow the Buddhist sect in high positions of power, and the state operation of the "main" religion should impose minimally on the "other" religion, which would mean that a lot of the core beliefs must reconcile. That doesn't seem too difficult, as there would likely be a lot of overlap, and you haven't provided any details as yet that distinguish religious activities from what could be normal secular activities (i.e. the intense physical training for all).

As for the reaction to dark-skinned humans... I doubt the first reaction would be a blood/genetic test. But I also doubt that the first reaction would be "kill it!" Like I said, they would not be accepted as equals. If you're imagining Icarans being somewhat benevolent, I could see that. If there would be interaction, I would put it somewhere along the spectrum from being treated like sentient pets (with almost zero education) to a class of servants and/or slaves. The position on the spectrum could very well differ depending on location, even on the same world. And the sustain process would almost certainly be forbidden for any except "pure" Icarans.

[dogscoff]

Will has a point. If they can reconcile two official religions within their society (I would be very interested to find out if there are power struggles/ conflicts/ tensions/ resentments between the two religious sects. It seems likely) then there is a basis for reconciling outside religions too. Those religions, though, would have to have strong overlaps with the official religions- they may even have to overlap on *specific* issues, ie the core ones that overlap between the state religions.

What I would suggest is that you invent a word to represent the 'core' beliefs/ dogma that are common between the two state religions, and which therefore allows them to co-exist. In other words, all Icarans believe in "core". However half of them believe in "core" with pseudochristian bits bolted on while the other half believe in "core" with pseudobuddhist bits bolted on. Obviously all of these things would have to have credible sounding names and more precise definitions. That system sounds to me like the kind of highly rational and regimented solution your Icarans might come up with.

Maybe "core" is the bit taught in school, while the bolt-ons are taught in the home. Better yet, maybe "core" is taught to all first-schoolers, and then they move to a specialist "bolt-on" school to complete their indoctrinat^H^H^H^Heducation. If later schooling is specialised according to the student's abilities (this seems quite Icaran to me) then this could lead to interesting class divisions: For example, perhaps engineering schools tend to be of the pseudochristian variety, so pseudobuddhist-type engineers are less common than the pseudochristian ones. This imbalance could well be a source of tension (especially if it means one religion is less likely to be well-paid/ reach prestigious rank), which is key to any novel.

If an outside religion can be somehow reconciled with core (and the Icarans would probably make deliberate attempts to modify a 'conquered' religion to this end - it certainly wouldn't be the first time in human history) then that religion can be absorbed and accepted. If it's tenets are too far from the 'core' to be reconciled (ie atheism, perhaps polytheist systems, any system which rejects religious involvement in politics) then it will have to be eradicated- even if this belief system has significant overlaps with the "bolt-on" parts of Icaran religion. Obviously, any belief whose supporters are too resistant to change to accept the 'modifications' the Icarans demand could expect similar treatment.

I would also draw your attention to this extract from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostage -
Major powers, such as Ancient Rome and the British who had colonial vassals, would especially receive many such political hostages, often offspring of the elite, even princes or princesses who were generally treated according to their rank and put to a subtle long-term use where they would be given an elitist education or possibly even a religious conversion. This would eventually influence them culturally and open the way for an amical political line if they ascended to power after release.

Given the ancient echoes you are trying to introduce into your Icarans (I seem to remember they have their roots in antiquity in some kind of alternate timeline) this strikes me as appropriate behaviour for them as a means of indoctrinating a conquered people, and also as a means of introducing foreign characters into Icaran cricles- this is very valuable from the author's point of view, since it allows you to write exposition for the reader, ostensibly for the benfit of the protagonist. Note that this kind of hostage-exchange didn't always work for the Romans: On more than one occasion the hostages went back to their people at the end of their stay and then built an army to oppose Rome. Might be worthy of your research, anyway.

In one of my earliest prototype stories Icaran FedSec soldiers (at the time called StateSec changed for obvious reasons SS abbreviation) would be deployed to take children away from their families (often kicking and screaming) and literally drag them into the Icaran schools where they would not see their parents again until the world was "cleansed" (i.e last generation pre-conquest died out).

They would also have no problem shooting rebels without any sort of warning or attempt at arrest, sometimes destroying entire towns that rebelled or resisted too heavily (I.e after their military is defeated armed Partisans are expected to lay down their arms or are instantly considered rebels/warcriminals)

I don't really know how the Icarans would respond to all this- presumably they aren't immune to pity (although conditining can do an awful lot to make people think pity doesn't apply to certain types of other people- hence all the horrible things that humans have done to one another throughout history), and so some kind of dissent could be fostered within Icaran society if ever get to see just how just how grisly it all is.

However I can tell you how the victims of this repression would react. Again, this isn't new to human history, and the reaction of the repressed is always the same: For as long as some members of the persecuted group survived, and for as long as the oppressors pursue this policy, they will have to deal with violent resistance. To quote Iain M Banks:
"Outright destruction of rebellious ships or habitats - pour encouragez les autres - of course remains an option for the controlling power, but all the usual rules of uprising realpolitik still apply, especially that concerning the peculiar dialectic of dissent which - simply stated - dictates that in all but the most dedicatedly repressive hegemonies, if in a sizable population there are one hundred rebels, all of whom are then rounded up and killed, the number of rebels present at the end of the day is not zero, and not even one hundred, but two hundred or three hundred or more; an equation based on human nature which seems often to baffle the military and political mind."

Just out of interest, has Icaran-buddhism retained the "do no harm to any living thing" principle that is central to buddhism? That could make things... complicated. How would the Icarans deal with an 'old-school' buddhist, Ghandi-style non-violent protest?

Finally, have you ever read HHGTTG? They aren't really the same as your Icarans, but the people of Krikket in the third or fourth book might be worth your attention. They do share a certain absolutist, self-centred psychology when it comes to foreign policy. If you haven't already, read it. (All in the name of research, you understand.)