Fairey swordfish

[chuckfourth]

Hi pat
Ok maybe I should have said
'a mine, such as the A MARK I, as a bomb, represents a flight of pure fantasy '
or
'this mine as a bomb represents a flight of pure fantasy'
instead of
'a mine as a bomb represents a flight of pure fantasy'
the first sentence is the meaning I intended.
1500 lb and 750 lb bomb carrying swordfish remain a fantasy. You or anyone else, have yet to show that the mine can be, or ever was, used as a bomb, the "A MARK I" not some german mine.
People will use it, if your looking for a big bomb in your fighter bombers youll pick this one, its the biggest and clearly shouldnt be there.
If you buy Maus everyone knows its a what if If you buy either of these swordfish you think you have a valid piece of kit.
Best Regards Chuck.

[PatG]

Chuck:
It would be unfair to ask you to prove a negative. However since the Swordfish was a production aircraft that could carry a production 1500lb mine and dropping mines on land targets was a generally know tactic (regardless of the nation doing it), it is possible that in some operation somewhere during the war that a Swordfish dropped a mine as a ground attack weapon. In fact far more likely than the Maus seeing combat service. So yes I would call it a valid piece of kit, far more valid than some partial prototype super-tank.

Everyone else:
Sorry for feeding the troll.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Pat
Well i dont accept that dropping mines on land was a generally accepted tactic, some quotes or references please.
Also i am not saying the Maus is a valid piece of kit I am saying that you know it is a "fantasy" equipment ie a "what if". the swordfish sneaks in as valid kit but is a fantasy. On your assumption that maybe it happened all sorts of other monstrosities can be included in the game. Maybe DORA shot point blank at tanks? its possible isnt it?
Best Regards Chuck.

[PatG]

Fortress Malta, James Holland. ISBN 140135186-7
page 112, Referring to the lack of effect of conventional and incendiary bombs on the architecture of Malta.

"Ordinary bombs caused little destruction: they would knock down buildings if there was a direct hit, but the blast effect was usually comparatively small. Now, however, the Germans had begun using parachute mines, which had a far greater blast power, and were consequently considerably more destructive."

from http://www.worldwar2exraf.co.uk/Onli...Theblitz4.html

"14th November 1940 - Code named Moonlilight Sonata German bombers turned their attention on Coventry decimating the city and dropping 150,000 fire bombs and 503 tons of high explosives, as well as 130 parachute mines."

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-mine#Air_mines

Air mines

During The Blitz the Germans used naval mines dropped on parachutes as improvised blockbusters. They exploded on contact with a hard surface, as the bomb was not in a crater, the blast could go sideways causing a great deal of damage.The large raid on Coventry on November 14/November 15, 1940 included the use of 50 parachute naval mines which caused extensive blast damage. The British called these devices air-mines. These types where used also during air raids on Malta especially on its harbour areas.

emphasis added

From: http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/s...a2065402.shtml

Land or Aerial mines. These were enormous steel canisters 9.1/2 ft. long containing 2,400 lb high explosive, they were dropped by a very large parachute so generally arrived silently some time after the bombers had gone, usually when the fire and rescue workers had arrived. The blast from these devices was devastating, destroying hundreds of homes for hundreds of yards and maiming or killing anyone in the area. The Germans dropped many parachute or land mines which would hang caught up in trees for days before exploding their massive charges, they were deliberately intended to inflict terror and slaughter civilians in large numbers.

from http://www.candi.ac.uk/about/news/2005/141105blitz.asp

Sixty-five years ago on 15 October 1940, a parachute high explosive bomb - a land mine - hit Dame Alice Owen's School. The school housed a basement air raid shelter and 109 of the 143 local people who were settling down for the night were killed.

If that's not enough, I can call up my Dad and get a quote about the one that blew up the block one over from his during the blitz. My Maltese in-laws might have some eye witness accounts too.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Pat
Ok so when you say "Generally Known tactic"
you mean the Germans had some and the British knew about it. The mine the Germans were dropping had an impact fuse, see
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMGER_Mines.htm
"Weight 1,213 lbs. (550 kg) with a charge of 661 lbs. (300 kg). Had a 22 second delay impact fuze which detonated the mine if it fell in shallow water or dry land."
ie for the mine to work on the land it needs an impact fuse
If its any consolation the British did have some mines with impact fuses, the A Mark III see
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMBR_Mines.htm
"Some were fitted for impact firing. Mark III*** was for dropping from Mosquitos at 260 knots from 300 feet (90 m) into inland waterways. Designed to be dropped from 4,000 lbs. (1,814 kg) bomb gear."
Note dropped from Mosquito not Swordfish.
No doubt they copied the German impact fuse.
You said
"it is possible that in some operation somewhere during the war that a Swordfish dropped a mine as a ground attack weapon"
It is clearly not possible unless the A Mark I mine has an impact fuse, which it has not.
In any case they are not heing used against tanks and infantry but against cities and in waterways do you really think they should be included in the game?
Best Regards Chuck.

[PatG]

Your assertion that:

Now you and I know that using such a mine as a bomb represents a flight of pure fantasy but what about the rest of your gaming community?

is thus proven wrong. Thank you for playing.

And for the record, that German time fuse was more of an anti- lift device than a purpose designed impact fuse.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Pat
Well if you really want to be that pedantic then yes, but please note that my original assertion that the swordfish has two bogus bombs, 1500 lb and 750 lb has been proven correct.
Best Regards Chuck.

[PatG]

Has it really? Provide evidence then that a Swordfish never dropped a naval mine as a ground attack weapon.
And yes I'm being snarky - asking anyone to prove a negative is a cheap shot. Don has made the change that's good enough for me.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Pat
I may have said this already, The A MARK I mine doesnt have an impact fuse, dropping it as a ground attack weapon is no different to dropping a 1500 lb lump of lead, you might just crush one infantryman. Which is why it was never used as a ground attack weapon.
Best Regards Chuck.

[PatG]

Impact detonation of British Aerial mines capable of being carried by the Fairey Swordfish

By design:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMBR_Mines.htm

A Mark I
Originally designed to fit the same dropping gear as the 18 inch (45 cm) Mark XI torpedo. First used magnetic only triggering but later versions incorporated acoustic, acoustic-magnetic and magnetic-pressure triggering, although the last one was not used in service. Weight was about 1,500 lbs. (680 kg) with a 750 lbs. (340 kg) charge.

Mk II info snipped

A Mark III
Similar to Mark I but with less use of scarce material. Some were fitted for impact firing. Mark III*** was for dropping from Mosquitos at 260 knots from 300 feet (90 m) into inland waterways. Designed to be dropped from 4,000 lbs. (1,814 kg) bomb gear.

Emphasis added.


By Accident
Fotress Malta -info given earlier

Nat was sent on another mine-laying excercise ... He particularily loathed taking off with these enormous long cylinders strapped underneath, especially since the gap between the ground and the "cucumber" was less than one foot; he was fully aware that on the rough, bomb-damaged airfield of Hal Far, it was all too easy to take off and hit an object that might cause the mine to explode. Nor had any of them forgotten what had happened back in February, when eight men were killed after one had accidentally detonated.

(spelling errors all mine) In February, an armourer was demonstrating - on dry land - how to arm the mine when it went off .

Theoretical
Given that most ships carrying Swordfish would have a workshop, an armourer could adapt a regular impact fuse to fit a mine.

To recap this post:
1) I have proven that the Mk III - Dimensionally equivalent to the MkI could be fitted with an impact fuse. No not the Mark III***.
2) The pilots carrying a "safe" mine were worried about accidental impact with a rock or pothole on take-off detonating the mine. It was not a "1500 lb lump of lead" Even when on "safe". Logically dropping a mine from altitude would have a much higher chance of detonation.
3) Royal Navy armourers almost certainly had the tools and skills to adapt a conventional bomb impact fuse to fit a mine.

Again - I am not saying any British aircraft ever dropped a mine as a ground attack weapon in the same fashion as the German airforces were known to have done.

And this is my last post on the matter - Sorry to the rest for involving you in this pi**ing contest.