British OOB7 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

[troopie]

Don, just ask yourself, 'Does it make a difference in game terms?' If not, toss it into the wpb and go have a pint of bitter.

troopie.

[DRG]

Troopie

That question, and variations of it, are SOP and in all cases the answer comes back a variation on "not really". There have been very few what I might consider real "game changer" OOB corrections made over the years and I honestly cannot recall the last time I found one I thought would make a real difference to how a game battle would play out.

Without belaboring the point the Typhoon IA "error" is a fair example since we are in that thread. We had it 9/41....it has been 9/41 as far back as I can check which is 2004. The odds someone won or lost a game because it was in with bombs a year early is infinitesimal because even with it moved to a later date there are other aircraft that can deliver the same basic firepower and bomb-load to do the same job as it so for whatever the "average" player is it would change nothing in how his game played out even though by this new information there was an historical error in the game.

I have posted elsewhere that "perfect" OOB's are an unobtainable goal and to even try to make that happen would require someone who really understands how the game is put together and uses all that data for AI and ( most importantly )actually likes to do the work and understand how it all fits together so as to NOT cause knock-off effects and that's a very ( very ) short list. I said back in 2019 when we release SPWW2 V12 that OOB work on winSPWW2 is frozen. Apparently all that did was stimulate even more reports and more "bright ideas" on how the game "should" be changed to make it "better". Right now there are just over 13,000 units in SPWW2 ( 39,468 in MBT ) Each unit has 59 data entry points ( 66 in MBT ). Each unit has a potential to use 4 weapons and each weapon has 13 data points and there are 4,983 of them ( 16,393 in MBT ). Those units are used by 7,082 formations ( 17,936 in MBT ) and each formation has 20 data entry points and each one of those data entry points could contain what someone might claim to be "errors" so the OOB's are an easy target for someone with an axe to grind.

If we did this for another 100 years the chance that no one could find what they consider a flaw in the OOB's is absolute zero and even if all the flaws could indeed be corrected the game would play little different than it does now.

Both SPWW2 and SPMBT are games. They were never intended to be the definitive historical simulation of battles that covers a 95 year time span even though we have expanded and fine turned the OOB's from the original game and from the very start SPww2 deviated from historical reality by allowing Germany and Japan to have armed forces after both ceased to be in reality to allow players to "what if". That was part of the game design process that any "historical purist" would have issues with.

We've been doing this since 1998. Neither Andy nor I ever expected we would still be working on it 23 years years later and we both agree we both probably would have given the whole thing a pass had we known.

[Mobhack]

Yep, was 98 or so when a guy from Canada emailed me some SHP files that completely blew me away, they totally changed the game from the lurid green and brown stodgy things SSI were providing. They were in camoflage so the name Camo Workshop came from those initial files of I think, some BTRS... been that long, I can't reccolect precisely what but they were utterly fantastic.

And like Don says, if I had known then that we would still be at it 23 odd years later I too would have run away screaming!

cheers
Andy

[zovs66]

Well I for one want to public thank and praise you both! If it were not for Don and Andy, I probably would have given up on SP way way back in 2003 or 2004. I really really tried to like that other game but something was just off, when I found the DOS versions of this game and MBT I was totally blown away and eventually created my first 20 scenarios way back then at the instance of Ed. I took a break, had a bad divorce (are they ever good, except when you move on, lol) and got back into playing the games happy solo for years and then sometime in 2017 or 2018 I went on design craze that barely has stopped (up to 300+ now, lol) and along the way I have met two of the finest folks in the world.

So I therefore am glad you two have slogged on and unfortunately put up with so much from so few, because I would have never met you or had your friendship and to me that is priceless.

So thank you so very much.

[Karagin]

The game is great, yes we all want tweaks, but none of us want to see it go away.

For me, this game (both this one and MBT) brings back those hours of fun fighting the green army men vs whatever else I had. It also gives me the chance to try out ideas and enjoy learning about the battles and what all happened. Plus it feeds right into my next three hobbies, history, reading, and model building.

Don and Andy have done an amazing job and here we are in 2021 and the game is still fun and enjoyable. I want to say I will still playing it in 2031.

Keep at it, ignore the crazies, you guys have done more with this than anyone thought possible.

Thank you.

[Charles M]

I sympathise with people complaining about inaccuracies, but nit-picking can be taken too far. For example, after autumn 1941 most Soviet aircraft, including some Lend-Lease types, did NOT have stars painted on the upper wing surfaces. I don't like this inaccuracy, but can live with it. More objectionable IMHO are those stupid black SS objective markers. What's wrong with just the normal Third Reich flag? If anyone can tell me how to remove these SS markers, I would be most grateful.

As for British OB vehicle usage dates, consult Chapter H notes in the Advanced Squad Leader board wargame, For King and Country. I was one of the researchers on the ASL project, and Bob McNamara went to great lengths to get things right. We used a host of sourcs and resources, including the Tank Museum in the days when queries could be submitted free. Happy to help with any queries. Regards Charles

[zovs66]

Personally I don't mind the SS VH Objective flags, no different really that seeing the Communist Soviet VH Objective flags. Every time someone objects to having SS runes or 3rd Reich swastikas' flags, they never ever complain about the Soviet Communist flags. Both were murderous regimes, but I'd wager that the Communist were more ruthless and murderous and for longer than the Nazi's.

I have played ASL since 1985/6 and despite AH and MMP's best intentions there is a lot of discrepancies in their data, also most of the research was done without the benefit of newer source materials available today.

Case in point Glantz's works were not available to AH back in the day and lot of folks from that era were influenced by the German's biased accounts of World War II.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by zovs66

Personally I don't mind the SS VH Objective flags, no different really that seeing the Communist Soviet VH Objective flags. Every time someone objects to having SS runes or 3rd Reich swastikas' flags, they never ever complain about the Soviet Communist flags. Both were murderous regimes, but I'd wager that the Communist were more ruthless and murderous and for longer than the Nazi's.

EXACTLY RIGHT. We added the ability to swap in ID tags and V hex markers to allow some personalization to scenarios. The SS runes were the last one added as I knew as the sun rises that SOMEBODY at some point would get their knickers in a knot about it but as you say....NOBODY ever suggests we remove the hammer and cycle but I figured if someone was going to complain about the runes it would be someone who uses the German cross set of tags we include and I actually never considered someone would say " What's wrong with just the normal Third Reich flag?" ( just saying THAT in the wrong place could get you in trouble ). There is nothing "wrong" with it just as there is nothing "wrong" with the Flag of the Soviet Union or the Chinese Communist flag even though those two are together responsible for 3x the number of deaths as Nazi Germany. They are part of history and on one hand we are chided for putting red stars on the wings of Soviet aircraft ( and YES I am WELL AWARE that was generally not done during the war years ) but OTOH are criticized for including SS runes for use with SS units in the game.

We include the USMC flag but no one has ever suggested that's a problem and when the next update is released there will be an optional Imperial Japanese ID tag and V hex marker and there a places in Asia that have issues with what that flag represents in their history.

So on one hand we don't have the level of accuracy some think we should have and OTOH have what some consider inappropriate levels of accuracy in other areas. We can't win. There are places the Israeli flag offends but no one suggests we remove it. There are places the Union Jack offends but no one suggests we remove it... With nearly 8 Billion people it's IMPOSSIBLE to not offend someone about something somewhere

[Pibwl]

Folks, I understand and appreciate, that Don makes a tremendous work with the games, but I just suggest some tweaks, which might improve historic accuracy and usually don't demand creating new icons, changing formations etc.
Sorry, I admit I'm quite addicted to improving accuracy in many fields. I started from writing notes on book margins, now I have improvable media like Steel Panthers (which luckilly is being developed by a a group of devoted staff) and Wikipedia
If you don't want to bother, just ignore. But something might be considered as worthy.

Originally Posted by Karagin

Keep at it, ignore the crazies, you guys have done more with this than anyone thought possible.

Agreed

Originally Posted by zovs66

Don just ignore all this drivel it’s just useless nitpicking by two folks, every post by these two as soon as I see a gal zillion letters I just scroll by and don’t even bother.

So do scroll, if you have nothing to say on the subject...

[blazejos]

In subject of Swastikas, SS runes etc. Is possible to have official blessing to use THOSE symbols in our game since 2018.

Since beginning of SPWW2 there was a additional shp files folder because German law were strict and don't allow THOSE symbols in any form in video games even in historical context.

But since 2018 German law makers made an exception for video games if follow this procedure

1. game is registered in USK
2. Authors of the game will register game in their system and ask about permission to use Hitlers symbols.
3. Permission isn't automatically. E-mail starts a discussion and this organisation will ask about context of the game and why authors want to use this symbols?
4. If they will be happy with answers. Use of THOSE will be well explained they can give official permission to use them without fear in distribution of game on territories and dependencies of German Federal Republic .

So if main authors will be interested WinSPWW2 can have official German government blessing and use swastikas without fear and remove this folder which was created because stupid law case related with Wolfenstein 3D.
Game will probably have after this procedure such age symboldon't know which age rating will be for game with THOSE symbols but propably somewhere from higher numbers.


Here articles about change of german law in 2018 in context of video games
https://www.lexology.com/library/det...8-863f2181874c
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/...n-video-games/
https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/JrgF...hould_care.php
https://kotaku.com/games-in-germany-...now-1828238768

And here USK [Unterhaltungssoftware Selbstkontrolle] institution where game must be classified and then is possible to ask about blessing.
https://usk.de/en/