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  #21  
Old July 9th, 2005, 09:29 PM
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Default Re: Interesting Site: Wheeled vs. Tracked AFV (US

Quote:
2mil for OHWS and C4I...Rafael makes much better and much cheaper systems,There is a M113 version with 2x7.62mm and one 12.7mm OWS.
Oh please, you're such an authority on judging these types of systems are you Mr "In everything, they are more versatile"?



1; If you think FAS is a good reliable source you're kidding yourself. To much crap has snuck in and noone has seriously maintained the site for years. Why don't you quote Wikipedia or something next, huh?

2; They guy claiming that the applique armour on that M113 stops Milan doesn't know what he's talking about. Exact specifications of the armour are ofcourse classified to begin with...

A hint can however be taken from the fact that USMC uses a version (imported from Israel) as an applique addon on LVTP-7's (the EAAK kit).

Against HEAT it is described as having following effectiveness;

"(it)Substantially decreases the effectiveness of shape charge weapons by reducing the fragmentation debris cone from 110° to 35°"

This is not "immunity"...

In AAR's it seems to be barely sufficient vs PG-7/7M against which is has failed completely at least once resulting in a total loss. Total number of hits, or data on penetrations failing to destroy the vehicle I haven't got, but I assume the vehicle should be relatively resistant to the damage due to its sheer size (overpressure and heat causing fire is less of a problem), giving a statistical probability of several more penetrations.

This all suggest even early Milan would eat it for lunch...


Amazing...

It was a pleasure not communicating with you.

Bye bye now, and welcome to my ignore list, because to be honest you bore me and isn't worth further effort.

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  #22  
Old July 10th, 2005, 12:46 AM
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Default Re: Interesting Site: Wheeled vs. Tracked AFV (US

Gentlemen,

You both certainly make some good points and much like a moth to a flame, I feel compelled to throw my 2 cents into a heated discussion.

The biggest irony of this whole arguement is that neither the M113 or the Stryker were designed for urban combat. The M113 was suppossed to be a battle taxi, delivering infantry to and from the front lines. (the concept of the Infantry Fighting Vehicle didn't come about until 1968 with the BMP-1). The Stryker was designed to "fill the gap between today's force and the Future Force by providing rapidly deployable mobile assets to the battlefield that will utilize the latest in command, control and intelligence technology to survive." The Stryker Brigades were suppossed to be used just as Bradley Brigades were during the Gulf War. (And they got hosed by hand-held ATGM's in every exercise)

Tracked vehicles burn more fuel, are much more maintenance intensive (tracks need to be changed a lot more than tires) and their visibility is not very good.

The Stryker is less armored, has poorer cross-country mobility and it's visibility is not very good.

In Vietnam, troops hardly ever road inside the M113. The bottom could not protect against mines and Aluminum burns like a sun-of-a-gun. They lined the bottom with sandbags and built improvised little forts on top of the vehicle to travel.

In Iraq, troops hardly ever ride inside their Strykers. They can't spot IED's in them. SLAT armor was added to it immediately.

The Stryker's biggest asset is not the vehicle itself. The biggest asset is the IVIS battle system, which each squad leader can connect to via wireless link to the host APC. This has consistently been identified as the most useful function from returning soldiers.

Look, the truth about the Stryker is that no one likes it. The Army spent billions developing a Piranha MOWAG, when they could have bought it, or copied the Marine Corp's LAV (also a copied MOWAG). $2 million is too much for a light armored wheeled APC, but not for the Stryker with IVIS. At $2 million this is a steal, given the C2I advantage IVIS provides.

I'm not an expert on AFV's, but I've heard that the Bradley is too different from the M113 to transition to easily. And embedding M113's with light infantry is not practical, where would all the drivers / mechanics come from. And don't forget training. Mechanized Infantry tactics are different than light infantry tactics.

Finally their is a big intangible to consider. The M113 looks more like a tank, which would imply US Forces are acting as occupiers, not liberators. The Stryker makes US forces more accessible to the Iraqi public, which fosters better international relations. (Pause for Laughter) I know how that sounds, but the Army Civil Affairs groups did this study.

So, I say stay with the Stryker, but only because of the IVIS.

Sources:
www.globalsecurity.org (many links)
www.army.mil
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  #23  
Old July 10th, 2005, 03:39 AM
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Default Re: Interesting Site: Wheeled vs. Tracked AFV (US

Kevin: Good points.
Backis: Addon armor for LVTP-7 is not the same as on Zelda-2, read thread on tanknet more preciselly.Your insults just indicate what the person you are.
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  #24  
Old July 10th, 2005, 06:00 AM
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Default Re: Interesting Site: Wheeled vs. Tracked AFV (US

If I'm not mistaken, isn't the add-on armor for the AMTRACs (LVTP-7 and AAV-7) only to protect them against Russian 14.5mm machine guns?
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  #25  
Old July 10th, 2005, 06:37 AM
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Default Re: Interesting Site: Wheeled vs. Tracked AFV (US

Exactly.But it offers limited HEAT protection.It is just passive array, but Rafael developed combined passive+ERA armor witch will be able to stop RPGs (at least those without tandem warhead)
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  #26  
Old July 10th, 2005, 07:42 AM

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Default Re: Interesting Site: Wheeled vs. Tracked AFV (US

From Wikipedia:
Approximately 80,000 units of all types have been produced worldwide making it the most widely used armored fighting vehicle of all time. The M113 is unofficially known as M113 Gavin.

I think we can indeed call it a fact that the unofficial nick for the M-113 IS Gavin, or would anyone like to sit in their holes at that?
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  #27  
Old July 10th, 2005, 08:03 AM
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Default Re: Interesting Site: Wheeled vs. Tracked AFV (US

Maybe in Sweden they call them unofficially diferently... :-)
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  #28  
Old July 10th, 2005, 08:10 AM
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Default Re: Interesting Site: Wheeled vs. Tracked AFV (US

By the way, M113 gets name by this man:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_M._Gavin
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  #29  
Old July 10th, 2005, 08:16 AM
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Default Re: Interesting Site: Wheeled vs. Tracked AFV (US

Do you guys even know how information gets posted on Wikipedia?

People can write what the hell they want there!

Its pretty funny you take FAS and Wikipedia seriously.
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  #30  
Old July 10th, 2005, 08:50 AM
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Default Re: Interesting Site: Wheeled vs. Tracked AFV (US

Against better knowledge I'll bite again... I'm just friggin dumb...

Quote:
Your insults just indicate what the person you are.
Nice of you adding your own "insults" when I promise to ignore you, such an act of overt bravery!

I guess you're no better than me, being "what the person" I am.

Though you making claims you cant support then try to spin your way out of them by distraction and smokescreens say something about what kinda person you are?

If you somehow missed it the thing I am debating with you is this statement of yours;

"In everything, they are more versatile."

You refuse to even acknowledge you made this statement, instead you employ topic drift and pretend to debate something else to cover yourself from fallout from a stupid statement.


Quote:
JaM said:

Backis: Addon armor for LVTP-7 is not the same as on Zelda-2, read thread on tanknet more preciselly.
That might be so, however there is a report critical of it for failing to stop PG-7/PG-7M warheads, so I think they actually were believed to be at least resistant to that threat level and failed. But this is pretty irrelevant to the core debate between you and I anyway.

I haven't stated, nor intend to state that wheeled vehicles are "in everything more versatile" to tracked vehicles. Both have their advantages and drawbacks. The point I make is that there are missions where a wheeled vehicle have advantages over tracked vehicles, this you meet with nonsense about M113 going "through" threats, which is another daft position considering you don't specify which threat.

Even if the applique package for the Zelda 2 would be superior to the yet undeployed applique pack for the Stryker, better protection levels alone still does not equal;

"In everything, they are more versatile."

See? I can concede a point, but still your statement remain ludicrous.

Stop squirming and fess up to that it was am unsupported unfactual statement made without really considering its meaning and you'll find that we're probably closer on this subject than you think.

Sorry about being an [censored] about this, I'm usually not this bad. Must be having a bad week.
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