Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT's.

[Fabfire]

DRG said:
We've already done our own modification to smoothbore gun accuracy but expanded that to include Russian derived guns as well as all nations using the "krupp" 120mm gun. When making adjustments like this all nations have to be taken into consideration. The Accuracy number has only a limited effect on the to-hit %. Things like crew skill and FC and RF have more influence but we have taken all these guns into consideration and made modifications to a very large number of OOB's

Don

I am looking forward to it! Just as a side note, I took into consideration all nations, too. And I also considered other 120mm guns other than the Rheinmetall L/44 and L/55, although I admit I concentrated much more on the German guns, because I have much more knowledge about them.

The MBT I know better is the M1A1 and derivatives up to the M1A2 SEP. Next, comes the Leopard 2, from the beginning up to the A6. Next, there is the Tigers of WW2, but thay are out of the context here, anyway.

Is there any possibility that we could have your new OOB pack for testing before the patch is released? I don't think this would do any harm whatsoever. Since I am twaeking with the OOBS already, I really would like to see what you guys, who have tons of experience with this game more than I wll ever do, have done. So I can learn what and how things interact to determine accuracy for the MBT guns.

Thank you for this wonderful game. I can't thank you enough for the most pleasurable wargaming-addicted lack of sleep since 1994...

The last wargame that grasped my interest like this one was the venerable TANKS by Norm Koger. The SP series was interesting, SPWAW included, but none really took my heart by assault like WinSPMBT. I can see I missed a lot not being able to run DOS games like SPWW2 and SPMBT in Win2K, which is my OS of choice for my two PCs...

You guys ROCK! WOO-HAH!

Best regards,

FAP

[DRG]

M256 said:

Is there any possibility that we could have your new OOB pack for testing before the patch is released? I don't think this would do any harm whatsoever. Since I am twaeking with the OOBS already, I really would like to see what you guys, who have tons of experience with this game more than I wll ever do, have done. So I can learn what and how things interact to determine accuracy for the MBT guns.
FAP

Nope, sorry. It's just confuses people when we do that (trust me on this ). As well there are OOB's with new Icons and new pics, and new picklist and before we know it the "pre-release" patch ends up almost as big as the actual one

We are testing it internally

Don

[JaM]

What about Sabot max range? Now, if you have russian gun and western gun with same penetration, they will have same effectivity, but in real world, soviet APFSDS rounds loose their speed and energy sooner than longer western APFSDS.So we have for example round from early 1970, with the same range as Silver bullet from 1991, but in real M829A1 had effective range over 3,5km and BM-15 around 2km.BM-15 loose over 150m/s/km. M829A1 around 50m/s/km.

[Fabfire]

Roger that. I can understand the situation. There are so many changes besides the issue of accuracy, that it would cause problems. But could you give me some more details, like, say the new values you are using (that affect accuracy) for the M1A1/ 2 or the Leopard 2A6, so I can go on further on my own? FC and RF I can understand and make some experiments with them, but crew skill are hard-coded, isn't it? I can alter the experience and morale modifiers in the OOBS, but how can I modify crew skill, other than via scenario editor?

Again, thanks so much for your kindness.

FAP

[Gooseman2448]

I have a real big problem with accuracy. An information I have read said in the 80's that NATO (US,UK and Germany mainly) were able to get a one shot one kill(1:1)ratio within 2000 meters. I am lucky to get one kill a turn in the game. That is sitting in a top down elevated postion, sitting still with no obstructions.

I can't even HIT a bunker sitting next to it. Forget KILLING it with one shot but, it won't even HIT the darn thing. I had a whole platoon around it and NONE of then could hit it!!!

I think a M1A2 could knock out a fixed postion with atleast two shots of HE or HEAT.

I tried different vehicles also.
M3A3 couldn't hit it much less kill it.
I tried the tow launcher from the M3A3, It would not go above 13%.

You tell me am I crazy.


BTW, I ended up moving engineers up, the first squad got cut down (of course, after shooting everything I had it was not even pinned) and a second squad took it out in TWO shots with TB grenades and a satchel charge.

[Alpha]

@ M256: hope you didn´t overdo it ? since we want also some challenge in the game playing as US or GER....i woul dbe a better solution to make some russian stuff more cheaper, so player can buy more, which would model to a decree the numbers of the eastern units that woul dbe thrown against us in the 80ties or 70ties....

btw: do you have some space left on your fine page ? i have a modified german OOB which could fit there.....

[DRG]

Gooseman2448 said:
I have a real big problem with accuracy. An information I have read said in the 80's that NATO (US,UK and Germany mainly) were able to get a one shot one kill(1:1)ratio within 2000 meters. I am lucky to get one kill a turn in the game. That is sitting in a top down elevated postion, sitting still with no obstructions.

I can't even HIT a bunker sitting next to it. Forget KILLING it with one shot but, it won't even HIT the darn thing. I had a whole platoon around it and NONE of then could hit it!!!

I think a M1A2 could knock out a fixed postion with atleast two shots of HE or HEAT.

I tried different vehicles also.
M3A3 couldn't hit it much less kill it.
I tried the tow launcher from the M3A3, It would not go above 13%.

You tell me am I crazy.


BTW, I ended up moving engineers up, the first squad got cut down (of course, after shooting everything I had it was not even pinned) and a second squad took it out in TWO shots with TB grenades and a satchel charge.

What you need to do is play more and gain some experience on how these things are handled. They are quite capabale of being destroyed without having to take massive losses. I would also suggest you avoid the Marines campaign until you have played awhile otherwise the spider holes will be a serious "problem" for you ( as they can be for many people ) However, I know they are all " defeatable " with proper tactics and a bit of game experience

Don

[Gooseman2448]

What you need to do is play more and gain some experience on how these things are handled. They are quite capabale of being destroyed without having to take massive losses. I would also suggest you avoid the Marines campaign until you have played awhile otherwise the spider holes will be a serious "problem" for you ( as they can be for many people ) However, I know they are all " defeatable " with proper tactics and a bit of game experience

Don

I guess the fact that a PLATOON of M1A2 cannot kill a MG pit is My problem not the ability of the weapon. I'll make sure I tell my brother-in-law to leave his armor support back at the base, because it is useless to them.

LOL... what a joke answer. You are telling me that 4 tanks 50 meter cannot kill much less hit a target??? Are you telling me all the advanced FC and RF and ACC is useless??

I have been playing SP games and wargames for 12 years so don't tell me about what I need to do. I might as well go back to WAW, atleast the WW2 era weapons are pretty consistant. BTW, I've been through the MARINE campaign several time that was fun, glad I didn't have M1's might have been a BIg problem...

Sorry to everyone else for my return rant.

[DRG]

Gooseman2448 said:

I guess the fact that a PLATOON of M1A2 cannot kill a MG pit is My problem not the ability of the weapon. I'll make sure I tell my brother-in-law to leave his armor support back at the base, because it is useless to them.

I'll tell you what. You send me your save with your platoon of M1A2's sitting next to a bunker that cannot be hit and I'll look at it

Gooseman2448 said:

LOL... what a joke answer. You are telling me that 4 tanks 50 meter cannot kill much less hit a target??? Are you telling me all the advanced FC and RF and ACC is useless??

As strange and this may seem to you I HAVE heard this all before in regards to bunkers and especially spiderholes (which totally mess with some peoples heads) and I have demonstrated with a save game example how to destroy these things when others said it was quite simply impossible. So dig out you save and attach it to a post and as I said, I will look at this becasue there are more than one kind of "bunker" and without seeing what you were dealing with I can only guess

Gooseman2448 said:
I have been playing SP games and wargames for 12 years so don't tell me about what I need to do. I might as well go back to WAW, atleast the WW2 era weapons are pretty consistant. BTW, I've been through the MARINE campaign several time that was fun, glad I didn't have M1's might have been a BIg problem...

Sorry to everyone else for my return rant.

Ah but see the problem here is WinSPMBT is NOT WAW and what works there may not work here becasue there were two entirly different groups developing both games with very different ideas on how the game should work. Send me your example of "I can't even HIT a bunker sitting next to it. " and I will look into it. Glad you liked the Marine campaign.

Don

[JaM]

Sorry so late, but i have problems to find this buletin.It is writen in Slovak and too technical, so im not able to translate it corectly.But there were two tables. Tab.1 with sumary of comparation fire with sabot ammunition at 1000m with gun fitted externally:
N500 ................ N250
TK.....2A46....YA1.........2A46....YA1
Y......81.......95..............48........67
Z......43.......95..............10........62

Y- horisontal
Z-vertical
N500- percentual share of hits on tagret, in 500mm distance from middle of target
N250- percentual share of hits on target, in 250mm distance from middle of target


Tab.2 is propability of hit from T-72 tank with first shot using APFSDS round at 2000m

Propability with tank gun Rate
2A46..........YA1..........YA1/2A46
0,57..........0,7.............1,23


YA1 is prototype of 2A46MS tank gun.Those tests were made in 1998.

I can send you by mail scanned pages.