Guide: MA Man - Making the best of a bad deal

[Squirrelloid]

Wait, sane people still play vanilla?

Man is pretty decent up until about turn 40 in CBM.

But in vanilla? Useless. All the units that are any good are too expensive to do anything with (resource-wise: no, you won't win with just longbows). Which means not only do you have no lategame, you also have no early or middle game.

[Wrana]

Yes, wardens not capital-only is CBM change. I think it's poor thematically, but it makes Man much stronger by allowing a good bless strategy. IIRC, it also makes a Warden Lord a weak priest - so able to self-bless.
As for raiding sacreds - Cu Sidhe are also stealthy.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Wrana

Yes, wardens not capital-only is CBM change. I think it's poor thematically, but it makes Man much stronger by allowing a good bless strategy. IIRC, it also makes a Warden Lord a weak priest - so able to self-bless.
As for raiding sacreds - Cu Sidhe are also stealthy.

How is it unthematic? Fluffwise, Wardens serve as bodyguards for Mothers of Avalon. Mothers are recruit everywhere. Therefore, Wardens should be recruit everywhere, because wherever there's a mother there should be a warden.

[Wrana]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

How is it unthematic? Fluffwise, Wardens serve as bodyguards for Mothers of Avalon. Mothers are recruit everywhere. Therefore, Wardens should be recruit everywhere, because wherever there's a mother there should be a warden.

Fluffwise, Wardens are made by enchanting promising warriors with some ancient Tuatha-originated magic to make them even better. And it is done in Forest of Avalon , where Avalon Witches have their main center.
I would think about some ritual spell(s) which would be castable by Crone only but would either summon some Wardens or, still better, turn existing troops into them.
What is worse, I think, and more easily fixed is that Wardens are map-move 1.
And, by the way, of course I am insane.

[thejeff]

Also, fluffwise all Mothers and Crones start out as Daughters, trained in Avalon. Since, not only is there no mechanism for Daughters becoming Mothers or Mothers becoming Crones, but Mothers are recruitable anywhere, there must be a reservoir of Mothers, formerly trained at Avalon roaming throughout the land, but not attached to your military. These are the ones you recruit. Obviously these Mothers have Wardens to guard them, also previously enchanted in Avalon. Those are the ones you can recruit.

Sometimes it doesn't pay to look too closely into the assumptions behind the game.

[Wrana]

Yes, Daughters problem bothers me more. It would be good to have a procedure for making them into Mothers & Mothers into Crones. And, of course, a problem of weak capital-only mage, too (returning to actual purpose of the guide).

[thejeff]

But that problem (Daughters->Mothers-Crones) is widespread. Many nations have similar progressions, though usually only 2 steps. Warlock Apprentice->Warlock,
Augur->Augur Elder, etc. Ermor can recruit Triari, aged veteran troops.

A mechanic for changing unit type with experience or age would be interesting, but it would be a drastic change, probably best saved for Dom4.

It's just part of the basic assumptions of the game. You can recruit units at various stages of training. Like many things, it doesn't make sense if you look at it too closely, but it works fine as a game. So fix the things that don't work.

I actually like the idea of a weak, but cost effective capital-only mage. If only the strong mage wasn't also capital only, so you'd actually bother to recruit Daughters.

[earcaraxe]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Crones: You can recruit them early on. When they get diseased, stick a Lycanthropos' Amulet on them.

Why does it help them?

[Verjigorm]

It regenerates them, preventing disease from killing them. When I had originally been trying this (and I believe there is a subsequent post about it), I was under the erroneous assumption that the amulet removed the disease affliction when it changed their form and "fixed" the old age problem. It does not--when I did the first test I forgot I had cast "Gift of Health" which was responsible for the disappearance of the disease.

The Lycanthropos Amulet does increase her basic hit points, but she can never fill those HPs without entering combat to receive a healing spell and if she does so, she will berserk which means she'll probably die. Therefore it is probably better to make Rings of Regeneration for them.

I try to get Elixirs of Life on my good crones as soon as possible. This is difficult because it either eats up Pretender turns or requires empowering someone.

[earcaraxe]

do they go berserk when get healed?

the elixir just saves them once, right? i mean they still remain old.

so a minor nature bless does everything the amulet or the ring does (the important parts)?

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

It regenerates them, preventing disease from killing them. When I had originally been trying this (and I believe there is a subsequent post about it), I was under the erroneous assumption that the amulet removed the disease affliction when it changed their form and "fixed" the old age problem. It does not--when I did the first test I forgot I had cast "Gift of Health" which was responsible for the disappearance of the disease.

The Lycanthropos Amulet does increase her basic hit points, but she can never fill those HPs without entering combat to receive a healing spell and if she does so, she will berserk which means she'll probably die. Therefore it is probably better to make Rings of Regeneration for them.

I try to get Elixirs of Life on my good crones as soon as possible. This is difficult because it either eats up Pretender turns or requires empowering someone.