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  #21  
Old October 18th, 2006, 08:07 AM
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Default Re: A long road

During my time in the Royal Armoured Corps I crewed Chieftain, Challenger 1 and Challenger 2, I was also a Gunnery instructor and was responsible for running range practices on many occasions, I can honestly say that Challenger 2 turret system was a joy to work with but the hull and automotive components were a nightmare. 3 Piece ammuntion includes the following the Projectile, Charge and Vent tube, 13 of which are held in a magazine at the base of the gun. The vent tube looks like a brass shot gun cartridge and is used to ignite the charge, it is the only thing left in the turret after firing. I am sure an AUTOLOADER can produce a faster rate of fire on the move, but I was referring to accuracy, remember on the tests you are under a time limit so you cant afford to slow down, the Challenger 2 platform is actually smoother the faster you go due to the suspension. I would reckon a maximum of 2 rounds a minute on the move if you want to hit your target it all depends on the skill and experience of the crew. An engagement involves a lot more than just how fast a gun loads, take into account that you have to identify your target first, not an easy thing at 40kpm. Once thats done the commander indicates the target to the gunner and the gunner lays on the target and carries out the engagenent. So although you may have a fast loader that doesnt mean a tank can fire as fast as it can be loaded. You will find that a lot of data on MBTs is released by manufacturers and is not always accurate or has been tested in perfect conditions, Challenger 2 could fire 5 rounds a minute from a static position at the same target which isnt firing back, lol.
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  #22  
Old October 18th, 2006, 08:09 AM
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Default Re: A long road



Quote:
I hope there's no Tommies around...
I was just trying to say (betrayed by my very bad english once again?) that even the Brits, well-known for their tenacity had to withdraw, which was certainly the best to do. No reasons to worry here.

Quote:
and again n316 simply doesn't exist...
Ok the units exists 'in game' but in the real world it's not yet in service (arrives in 2008).
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  #23  
Old October 18th, 2006, 09:19 AM

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Default Re: A long road

Quote:
...I am sure an AUTOLOADER can produce a faster rate of fire on the move, but I was referring to accuracy...
I'm not quite sure I understand exactly what you mean here. You said: "...I think the worlds leading MBTS are pretty much the same, the differences are not enough to give one side a huge advantage in a conflict, it will be the crews that do that.". If I read you right that was supposed to mean that, all in one, most of the leading nations MBTs have close (or similar characteristics regarding their combat capabilities on the field, right? Now, if I think about that in terms of pure statistical results, can I say that, in an engagement test between two equally gifted MBTs (speed; armor; ammunition types; crew experience, and so on), the potential of one protagonist of firing five or six shells while the second can only fire twice should provide a "significant" advantage? In terms of game play, can I say this advantage should be portrayed in a way yet to determine? Would you say these deductions are correct or did I miss something primordial, once again?

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I would reckon a maximum of 2 rounds a minute on the move if you want to hit your target it all depends on the skill and experience of the crew.
Should I read: an average crew can fire only one shot accurately per minute, in such conditions? In game, by 1999, a Chally 2 crew with 62pts in Exp. can fire 2 times while driving at 17mph (by the standards you set I would consider that's "almost" correct). In 1980, a M1 Abrams with a 54pts crew (fairly below average, right? By the way, is Avrg reached at 60/120 or 70/120pts?), can fire 2 times while driving at 20mph. Of course they loaded only 105mm shells but didn't they use one piece ammunitions instead of the English 2 or 3 pieces? Makes me wonder.

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An engagement involves a lot more than just how fast a gun loads, take into account that you have to identify your target first...
In game terms, as far as I know, you can only fire at a target that is already considered as acquired and identified, right? In real life engagements I'm sure things are sometime VERY far from, as you say: "data (...) released by manufacturers... ".
Your testimony is of GREAT value, indeed! I'd really love to read more messages with such valuable first hand info. Sadly, as it's very rare and hard to find, I think we'll have to rely mainly on those data released by manufacturers.

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Challenger 2 could fire 5 rounds a minute from a static position at the same target which isnt firing back, lol.
Do you mean that during these training runs "targets" actually fired back? What was the percentage of loss?
By the way, I would apologize! I read what I wrote yesterday and I'm ashamed and confused. I mistakenly called you: "Mr. Sucbut" ! Of course there was no pun intended and it was only due to my "lightningfasttypewritingspeed proficiency" which was turned on for that occasion.
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  #24  
Old October 18th, 2006, 09:29 AM

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Default Re: A long road

Quote:
Ok the units exists 'in game' but in the real world it's not yet in service (arrives in 2008).
You may be right for "real world" vehicles (haven't checked) but in game, Unit 316 reads that years of production range from 2002 to 2009.
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  #25  
Old October 18th, 2006, 09:56 AM

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Default Re: A long road

Quote:
Challenger 2 could fire 5 rounds a minute from a static position at the same target...
Made a quick test:
October 1999; Chally 2 at full stop:

Exp. 70 (Avrg. ?) ==> 3 shots.
Exp. 100 ==> 5 shots.
Exp. 126 ==> 6 shots.
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  #26  
Old October 18th, 2006, 12:34 PM
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Default Re: A long road

Its more in line with who fires first rather than how many they can fire, if you are engaged and hit by a Challenger 2 firing APFSDS(DU)you are dead. If the Challenger misses and your tank is capable of penetrating Challengers frontal armour then the challenger is dead. Its the first round that counts. I would expect any modern tank firing DU ammunition to penetrate Challengers armour. Older tanks such as T-72 will have a more difficult time as has been proven in combat. Now as to the M1 I have not had much experience with that vehicle but I have crewed an older Australian leopard 1a4 also a 105mm gun and the shells are definately easier to load on the move than a 120mm case so I would think that the 105mm M1 would be able to achieve 2 rounds a minute. I like Winspmbt its a great game and fills my x-military cravings, but we must remember its just a game and no matter how dedicated and professional the team behind it you will never be able to match the realities of real warfare. An example is that although a tank my have certain specifications, for instance say the speed rating for Challenger 2 is 54kpm, in real life that may not be true for every tank. Each vehicle will be different, in my Troop my own tank could easily cruise at 60kpm but my troop corporals could never get above 40kpm, some tanks run smoothly others are always in the repair yard, we even had one challenger which was always catching fire in the engine decks but no fault could be found. The one thing I can guarantee no matter what tank your in, if your tank is static and the enemy is moving you will get the first shot. In the past 10 years our targets now fire back due to the new laser engagement systems we use much like the American kit. We now fight battlegroup against battlegroup and it makes a huge difference when the enemy is a living, breathing target who can think for himself. When we first started using the system battlefield casualties were so high that it forced the British army to completely rethink its combat tactics. Over the past few years those tactics have proven to be successful and casualty rates are normally low unless you are up against an extremely gifted commander or you have a Dunce as a Battlegroup commander, lol. I took no offense from the miss-spelling of my nickname, this is a mature forum and I would not expect namecalling therefore I took it for what it was, a miss-spelling
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  #27  
Old October 18th, 2006, 05:08 PM
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Default Re: A long road

"targets now fire back due to the new laser engagement systems we use much like the American kit."

You gotta love MILES. 4 years experience with those systems out at Fort Irwin, CA. I was OPFOR. I died so many times out there it wasn't even funny. It also helped that I was a important asset that needed taken out quickly to hurt the overall force. If I was spotted, it was OH CRAP....LOL I was a combat engineer. I operated the M48 & M60 AVLBs, the M728 CEV and M9 A.C.E., plus a bunch of other equipment, Dozers, dump trucks, MICLIC etc,etc.. I was the driver, and loader on the CEV. I loaded the 165mm HEP rounds on the move over rough terrain in the desert out there. No easy feat there. tossing around 65 lbs of C4 is not comforting feeling LOL..That is based on the M60A3 chasis. I would have loved to do that with the M1 Abrams chasis, much better ride. Terrain or not, when you are a loader you preform or your dead weither you are stablized or not, you do what you have to do to make sure you gunner can pull his toggles. Like Cusbut said, first to pull trigger usually wins. I know when I was attached to the BLUFOR guys out on there live fire exercises, the M1s were not slowing down to reload or fire. Don't get me wrong if they found a good firing position they would fire from there and then advance, but if they were in open areas, it was full throttle baby. Very impressive to witness and be a part of. My poor CEV could not keep up.. But if they wanted fighting positions by me, they slowed up to keep me close. LOL..... and the same was for there tank tables. Full throttle for most of it. Again like Cusbut said, its all timed and judged. The faster and more accurate you did the better. The competition between crews are tough. Even us CEV crewman competeted with each other.... But any who. That is my 2 cents on my personal experience on this.
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