Terrain Protection

[Cross]

The following is my current guesstimate regarding terrain protection:

Excellent
Foxhole
Impassable
Rough
Stone Building Rubble
Trench

Very Good
Shell Holes
Stone Building
Wood Building Rubble

Good
Hedgerow/Bocage
Orchards
Soft Sand (dunes)
Trees
Volcanic Sand
Wood Building

Fair
Green Crops
High Grass
Slope
Tilled Field
Wheat Crops

Poor
Bare Earth
Clear
Forest Ground Cover
Secondary Road
Short Grass
Snow
Snowdrifts
Stream
Wooden Bridge

Very Poor
Cobblestone
Deep Water
Marsh/Swamp
Mud
Paddy Field
Paved Road
Pavement
Railway Track
Sand (beach, flat)
Shallow Water
Stone Bridges
Tram Lines

The ones I'm most unsure about include:

Soft Sand/Volcanic Sand (Good? Assuming these represent dunes)
Slope (Fair? Slopes are fair in SPWaW but I don't recall why)
Stream (Poor? Or are these very poor like shallow and deep water?)
Dragons Teeth (Not on the above list, as I'm not sure they provide any protection?)


Can anyone tell me what I've got wrong?

Thanks,
Cross

[Imp]

I am thinking soft & volcanic sand if they provide cover down 1 level to the crops field category, if dunes more like tilled field than a wooden building is the thinking. Soft sand I assumed represented loser sand looking much the same as any other & normaly discovered in RL by a vehicle getting stuck in it. Seem to remember parts of NA in WW2 were a nightmare & looked pretty much like normal sand in which case might soak up indirect fire a bit more than hard ground.

[RightDeve]

Originally Posted by Imp

I am thinking soft & volcanic sand if they provide cover down 1 level to the crops field category, if dunes more like tilled field than a wooden building is the thinking. Soft sand I assumed represented loser sand looking much the same as any other & normaly discovered in RL by a vehicle getting stuck in it. Seem to remember parts of NA in WW2 were a nightmare & looked pretty much like normal sand in which case might soak up indirect fire a bit more than hard ground.

Disagree, soft or volcanic sands are sure difficult terrain to maneuvre, soldiers are usually get stuck. So it'll be (normally) a duck shot for the enemy. Regarding the softness/quickness of the sand I don't think it will do anything to its cover value, no soldier would "shove"/"dig" a soft sand in the middle of a hot battle (note that generally, soft sand or sand in general RL is comprised of very plain terrain, there is no cover in it, in contrast to the "clear terrain" where it is assumed that there exist some "small covers".

PS: As to the crop fields, it has it's own characteristics of cover, i.e the standing crops.

[Kartoffel]

Originally Posted by Cross

The following is my current guesstimate regarding terrain protection:

Excellent
Foxhole
Impassable
Rough
Stone Building Rubble
Trench

Very Good
Shell Holes
Stone Building
Wood Building Rubble

Good
Hedgerow/Bocage
Orchards
Soft Sand (dunes)
Trees
Volcanic Sand
Wood Building

Fair
Green Crops
High Grass
Slope
Tilled Field
Wheat Crops

Poor
Bare Earth
Clear
Forest Ground Cover
Secondary Road
Short Grass
Snow
Snowdrifts
Stream
Wooden Bridge

Very Poor
Cobblestone
Deep Water
Marsh/Swamp
Mud
Paddy Field
Paved Road
Pavement
Railway Track
Sand (beach, flat)
Shallow Water
Stone Bridges
Tram Lines

The ones I'm most unsure about include:

Soft Sand/Volcanic Sand (Good? Assuming these represent dunes)
Slope (Fair? Slopes are fair in SPWaW but I don't recall why)
Stream (Poor? Or are these very poor like shallow and deep water?)
Dragons Teeth (Not on the above list, as I'm not sure they provide any protection?)


Can anyone tell me what I've got wrong?

Thanks,
Cross

IIRC, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, any transportation modality modified hex projects the same "terrain protection" as the underlying hex type without any transportation modality modifier.

In other words road and rail hexes provide the same protection as the hex type they are paired with.

[Cross]

Sand Dunes

Soft sand is also called 'sand dunes' in the game guide, not ‘quick sand’ - and the fact that this terrain can easily immobilize vehicles - doesn't suggest low undulating/rolling changes in the surface but higher mounds of sand.

I've been in a lot of sand dunes, and they offer superb defensive possibilities. They may be horrible for wheeled vehicles, but they absorb bombs, shells and bullets. Sand dunes are one of the reasons so many of the BEF were safely evacuated from Dunkirk.

There is no doubt that 'soft sand' can easily immobilise vehicles, and the Game Guide says 'volcanic sand' is similar to 'soft sand'.

I assume volcanic sand can represent the dunes found on some pacific islands. But volcanic sand is also described in the game guide as being like a light scree with rocks, small stones and grit.

Don’t forget this game ‘models’ at least two other types of sand terrain: there’s ‘sand’ which is flat or beach terrain offering ‘very poor’ protection; and there’s sand colored ‘clear’ terrain, often used in the desert, which gives ‘poor’ protection...I think?

Underlying Terrain

The game guide does tell us that bridges and rail track negate underlying terrain, but I’ve not seen info on roads.

I would imagine that if you have troops running down a paved road, that crosses a field, and they start to get shelled, they would be better off if they got off the road. But it's possible the game considers them able to take cover at the side of the road?

Some terrain can be cumulative, for example: trees on top of a crop field etc. but not sure what other features can enhance underlying terrain?

The game guide is rather sketchy and vague on terrain protection. Which was why I hoping to get some feedback. One could set up a number of tests, but with there’s a lot of different types of terrain…

Perhaps I just need to pay more attention to casualties in relation to terrain as I play.


Cross

[Imp]

Fair point on the dunes, as to roads rail I assumed negates terrain below for the following reason.
If you mouse over roads etc it just says road, other combined terrain lists both so assume its cumulative as in trees, clear or trees rough. So take it if in a road hex you are considered on it not in the other terrain, also based on fire at units in rough road vs rough from observation they seem more vulnerable on the first.

[RightDeve]

I see the point, never been through sandy battlefield before. That was just my guesses anyway.
And the fact that it absorbs shell splinter, hmmm, never think of that.
I think you've got the right answer for your own question Cross!

[Mobhack]

Remember to consider other factors.

Stationary or moving.

Vehicle or foot. (Grunts get better protection in rough than vehicles)

Type of fire - direct or indirect. Cluster or flame or HE or whatever.

Up hill or down dale - a tank on higher terrain tends to be considered at least part hull down, and so receive more turret hits than hull. (That may be bad for Pz4s with the thin front turret.. but that was true IRL)

And - no there is no "integrated table of protection values" - it is spread throughout the code, so even I could not really state one way or the other without a detailed read through. Which I am not going to be doing.

A HE round going off in mud, swamp, lake, snowdrifts, river, soft sand or volcanic sand is deemed to be impacting in soft stuff, and has a slight HE kill deduction. But not if cluster.

Soft sand is dunes (it has a height component over plain desert hexes). Volcanic sand is really peculiar to Iwo Jima, and a very few other places like it. Both are somewhat horrible to operate wheeled or less so, tracked vehicles.

Me - I tend to gravitate to rough terrain hexes esp those with a handy friendly or enemy supplied shell hole. Guess what type of hex I look for in my rear zone, when deploying my mortars or howitzers? .

Cheers
Andy

[Cross]

Andy's post suggests that this game handles terrain in a more sophisticated manner than I imagined.

Imp, I agree about the roads situation. I recall I had a ten man infantry squad running down a paved road, behind my lines, when a large artillery shell landed in their hex. Every single man in squad was a casualty.
It was a campaign and I lost an excellent NCO, but I remember being impressed with how realistic that was.

I hadn't really thought about the fact that the game is able to vary the defensive protection of terrain according to the type of fire.

I like to have a rough grasp of what the game is doing, which is why I start threads like this, but during a battle I don't reduce the game to set of maths formulas. I prefer to play intuitively, which is probably the most fun way to play anyway.


Cross

[Kartoffel]

In my expierence road is not its own terrain type, I haven't played hardcore for a while, but when I did, some time ago, road over rough seemed to have the same protection as rough without road.

And it makes sense if you think about it, as Cross points out. What infantryman would stay on the road if there is a handy jumble of boulders or clump of trees right on the side of the road?

(trees can be placed on a road hex)