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Old September 1st, 2004, 11:01 PM
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Default Slynky\'s Demise

For two days now, I've pondered how much satisfaction/disatisfaction I get from playing this game. Recent events have brought this to the forefront of my thoughts. After all, if it isn't a source of entertainment/fun, why bother, right? When one loses sleep and feels sick to his stomach, it's time to re-evaluate one's commitment to the game.

Mostly, it's due to multi-player games. Games where your success is dependent upon the honesty of your allies. Games where your success is dependent upon the ability of your allies to do their turns correctly...move ships where they promised, gift as agreed to, etc.

And, to give a bit of insight on the kind of guy I am, I don't really like "getting along" with someone knowing later that I'll have to declare war on them to expand or that they will dump me to expand. It's just a hard thing for me to do and I always feel bad about doing it to someone (even though we discussed notification ahead of time) and having it done to me (even though it was discussed ahead of time).

Most recently, it occurs in Anklebiters. It bothered me a lot to "hop" on Tesco. It's taking him out of the game (from what I see). It bothers me that soon, it will have to be Joachim.

The more I play these types of games the more it occurs to me that they don't bring enjoyment.

So, assessing what is fun and what is not, what makes me feel good inside and what doesn't, I'm advertising for a takeover in the Anklebiters game:

My empire is currently 2nd (a STRONG second) and has reliable allies. The economy produces more resources than it can use (hence the nearly 2 million minerals in storage). With a score on 4.7 million, 3rd place is far behind. The empire has over 800 ships (probably the 2nd highest total in the game), several warp openers and closers, and highly trained ships (one fleet is at 25%). Defenses are very good with over 1,000 platforms built on planets. Nearly every planet of the 170 I have is converted to breathable. Warphole prevention facilities are built in nearly every system. There are 2 planet creators as well. RexTorres, a very trustworty ally, is in first place. For his support in the game, I have promised him I would never challenge his 1st place...I would need a pledge of anyone taking over the empire that they would not break that promise. AtomSmasher has also been an ally from nearly the beginning and an honorable player. He should never be attacked (unless there are only 3 players left in the game...sorry, AS...another reason I should never be in these sorts of games). I'll play it till I get an offer from someone...it takes me about an hour and a half to do a turn (but others might be faster at it than me).

Grudge Match of Doom - Two players have dropped out of this game. This renders the game to be NOT the game it started out to be. Even with substitute players. I apologize to Lord Chane for getting him into it as a substitute player for another who just quit playing with no explanation. Now, a second has quit...so I see no need to look for a replacement. I will withdraw from the game. Since it was a Rated game, I will take the Ratings adjustment since it was not a RL reason (the only reason to allow a withdrawel without a Ratings adjustment).

I'll continue to run the Ratings site (as there is still some interest in it). But, it reveals what we all may have known...who the good players are and that it's rare to find people who want to be rated when they find themselves below average. It may die a natural death.

I'll continue my 1 x 1 KOTH games where I am not at the mercy of deceitful players or incompetent allies. Where the only reason for my losses are the (perhaps) result of random map placement or my lack of skill.

This is, as I see it, the best decision I can make that will provide what this game is supposed to provde me with...fun and entertainment...NOT loss of sleep, wondering who I can trust, who I should attack, etc. (I never much liked the Avalon Hill--I think it was them--game of Diplomacy, either, where your success was dependent upon your ability to lie and the honesty of others.) Just not my "cup of tea".
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Old September 2nd, 2004, 12:06 AM
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Default Re: Slynky\'s Demise

Quote:
Slynky said:

Most recently, it occurs in Anklebiters. It bothered me a lot to "hop" on Tesco. It's taking him out of the game (from what I see). It bothers me that soon, it will have to be Joachim.


Dont be so sure on me next.... My empire stats read like yours! [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Dagger.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Grenade.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Hammer.gif[/img]

I understand your reasons and respect you for them. I personally wrestle with the problem of knowing that to do well in multi-player games means killing other empires and thus removing another person's enjoyment of the game. Unfortunately it is the only way to survive, just sitting even with good defense set ups doesn't work. It is a shame that the only way to survive is to destroy everyone else. Maybe SEV will fix this with other ways of winning.
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Old September 2nd, 2004, 12:12 AM
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Default Re: Slynky\'s Demise

Oh, yeah, I know, Joachim, that you're formidable. That's why I mentioned my 800+ ships was probably 2nd best . You're a darn good player!

But you caught on to my meaning. That is the important part. And you feel the same way I do, I think.
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Old September 2nd, 2004, 12:21 AM
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Default Re: Slynky\'s Demise

Who's to say you're taking away other people's enjoyment? I for one enjoy putting up a losing fight, just to see how long I can survive!
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Old September 2nd, 2004, 01:02 AM
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Default Re: Slynky\'s Demise

It is no fun to win every single game you play... You have to lose some.

That being said... I have never betrayed an ally (not regarding trade "alliance" as an ally...), and I try not to ally with people I suspect might do so to me. It isn't much fun backstabbing people just so I can play a few dozen more turns... There are always more PBW games to join. [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Lightning.gif[/img]
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Old September 2nd, 2004, 01:10 AM
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Default Re: Slynky\'s Demise

Quote:
Ed Kolis said:
Who's to say you're taking away other people's enjoyment? I for one enjoy putting up a losing fight, just to see how long I can survive!
LOL, Ed...

Yes, I suppose there are people like that out there and I respect them. That's for sure!

But I tend to think about people and their outlook on games the same way I do...I don't like to declare war on people in a "Last man standing" game nor do I like being the person who other people decide to declare war on (in the same kind of game).

I've come to the realization that games without defined allies and opponents from the beginning (and those are your enemies and allies for the duration of the game) is not my cup of tea. It makes me feel bad to be screwed over and it makes me feel bad to single out one of my allies and decide to use him for expansion.

I am near the point of quiting forever but know that I love the game. So, I'm trying to stick with it within the parameters that still allow me to not feel bad.
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Old September 2nd, 2004, 01:16 AM
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Default Re: Slynky\'s Demise

Quote:
Imperator Fyron said:
It is no fun to win every single game you play... You have to lose some.

That being said... I have never betrayed an ally (not regarding trade "alliance" as an ally...), and I try not to ally with people I suspect might do so to me. It isn't much fun backstabbing people just so I can play a few dozen more turns... There are always more PBW games to join. [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Lightning.gif[/img]
Well, Fyron, one of the few things we see a bit eye-to-eye on .

You hit the nail on the head in a way. I've played KOTH games where it is a runaway victory for me. Most recently, with Hustler. I don't like them at all! I even suggested at one point that I was way ahead of him (as a delicate suggestion we shouldn't continue the game). But he seemed positive and wanted to continue. Till he met my ships, lost breathers, lost a colony tech, and decided my ships "had tech he hadn't dreamed of" (his words, not mine). I don't enjoy those games. And there have been more than one of those, that's for sure!

I like a nice even game that you hold your breath on when you unzip the turn (staring at the combat file!). I've had many of those games, too... .

But I won't put myself in a game of multi-player any more because of the reasons I mentioned above.
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Old September 2nd, 2004, 01:23 AM
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Default Re: Slynky\'s Demise

Hey Slynky... how about the cooperative humans-vs-AI games, like the Mail Order Monsters ones? Would you be interested in something like that? I just really don't want you to leave the community entirely, which I kinda fear you'd do if you stopped playing multiplayer...
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Old September 2nd, 2004, 01:48 AM
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Default Re: Slynky\'s Demise

Sounds like you enjoy the challenge and don't enjoy the backstabbing. Just summing up for my next point: Start a game with pre-defined allies and the rule that if one side has, say, 25-50% more score than the other, they automatically win. No backstabbing, no one-sided battles.

Just suggesting; if you decide not to play at all, that's your choice.
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Old September 2nd, 2004, 02:49 AM
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Default Re: Slynky\'s Demise

I can understand you, Slynky. Although I have less problems with declaring war on someone I "just" have a trade alliance with. When it is standard to have a trade alliance with everyone and the game is Last man standing, everyone should know that these kind of alliances are very temporary. I too like Ruatha's NGC series - partnership with only 1 other, and a partnership of 2 can win. This way, you can choose one trusted ally and, at least in my style of play, stick to it without backstabbing.

But I can understand that it becomes boring at the start of these games if trades are allowed. Considering the importance of colonization tech and alien breathers, you MUST trade or suffer defeat, and I hate this diplomacy-like game approach too. I also liked the KOTH due to the lack of that game aspect, but it has a too narrow focus eliminating too many game choices. It starts with setup where little choices are left if you don't want to be handicapped from start. And after you have learned the optimum strategy the game is more dominated by luck and starting placement than by skill.

I know it is not enforcable by setup, just by trusting the players not to break houserules, but wouldn't it be fun to play a game where you can't trade at all and breaking of treaties has to be announced one turn ahead? Would you have fun to play such a type of game, Slynky?
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