EA Vanheim build order and long term strat

[Viajero]

Was browsing through the strategy threads and found some info on Vanheim but nothing specific regarding proposed build orders in the first turns to get the machine going and/or medium/long term priorities etc. Have not used this nation at all so any advice on any of the below is appreciated:

1)Pretender build recommendations, bless vs rainbow.
2)Typical build order for the first 5 to 10 turns
3)Which sacred units/commanders are most effective?
4)What spells are research priority for Helheim? what to aim for in mid game.
5)What are the best thugging options? death? I ve read that in EA most nations have recruitable SC but Vanheim does not, how does Vanheim counter this?
6)Does it have any kind of end-game strategy?

Thanks,

[Gregstrom]

I don't pretend to have any Vanheim expertise, but...

1. You have some good sacreds, so a bless is very viable. Water helps your high defence glamoured units nicely, and Astral can keep them viable later into the game as well.

2. Past turn 3 or so, demands on production may be a little unpredictable (things like agressive neighbours, for example). I don't know if there can be a typical build order over the first 10 turns. Maybe dwarves + sacreds with the occasional Van for blessing armies each time you're ready to send out a war party?

4. Thunder Strike.

5. Death is good for the Van (although rather limited except in the case of Helheim). Otherwise, Blood may be a good idea.

6. Err, win before the endgame? They're not a late game powerhouse. If you know you're not going to win any time soon, bootleg death for eventual Tarts and hunt extensively for Blood. You're pretty much stuck for Astral (barring indies/pretender paths).

[vfb]

I think he's asking about EA Van.

1. Your sacred Vanheres will rack up lots of fatigue when they berserk, and it's worse if they are quickened. I'd go for a rainbow bless that will be useful on the commanders too, like E4N4W4S4. You've got no Oracle to go for a W9S9 bless, and that bless works much better with mounted sacred troops anyway. S4E4 lets you make astral rings and golems. A sleeping god will give you decent enough scales, I prefer at least neutral production.

2. I'd go dwarves and huskarls for the first little while, and indy commanders to lead the huskarls. Past turn 2, grab a few serfs to place up front and catch arrows instead of having them hit your huskarls.

3. I'm not crazy about the Vanheres. They have no shield, and once they get hit they berserk and build up fatigue, and even if they don't get killed they rack up afflictions. Your commanders with A2 or A3 can self-bless and cast Mistform; the ones with E can also cast ironskin. They work well with a Vine Shield, another reason for N on a rainbow god. A frost brand is good too.

4. Thunder Strike is nice, but Alt-3 gives you Mistform, and you need Const-4 for gear for your sacred mounted commanders. On the other hand, Evo-4 also gives Blade Wind for your dwarfs. So, (Const-4,Alt-3) or (Evo-4,Conj-3). Conj-3 gives you Summon Earthpower for better Blade Winds. Const-4 also gives you Sanguine Rods. Once you've got both of those you can go Alt-4 for Destruction.

5. Your Vanjarls and Vanadrotts are perfectly good thugs.

6. You've got Fog Warriors and Army of Foo army buffs in the late game, plus Rain of Stones from your dwarfs. With an E4S4 god you can make anti-SC golems. Blood gives you nice summonables and a chance at unique SCs. You've got a shot at getting the Earth and Air elemental royalty.

[P3D]

Don't neglect owl quills. You prolly won't have gems for Skulls.
Try to get W4E9N4 on the Master Druid to get the most out of your thugs. Bracers are very good cheap artifact for them.
Vanheres won't worth a bless for themselves. Were they not capital-only, it'd be another question.
Storm+storm power.

[vfb]

On the other hand, you can choose to neglect Owl Quills. Maybe build just one right at the start of the game. A quill is just 3RP, and you get 3RP out of a tribal shaman for about 100 gold, or 4RP with magic scales. Air gems are better off saved for Mist, Arrow Fend, Trapeze, Air Elementals, Fog Warriors, etc IMO (and maybe the occasional strategic Seeking Arrow barrage).

You could use an A3W4E4S4N4 Great Enchantress in CBM with Order-3,Cold-1,Misf-1,Magic-1. Vanadrotts and Vanjarls have low base protection so you're not getting much benefit from an expensive E9 bless.

[Illuminated One]

Hmm, I don't know, I wouldn't keep on forging them, but if you forge 5 owl quills (15 gems) starting on turn 15 you will have about 480 rp more at turn 50 (you can recruit the shaman anyway). Nothing gamebreaking, but if the new spells let you save 15 gems...

[thejeff]

Yeah, they're not a long term strategy, but if const is one of your early research goals anyway (to thug out your Drotts & Jarls), a few early on can give you a nice research boost.
And the critical uses for Air gems don't come along until you're a bit farther in research anyway.

Sure, Indy shamans can get you 3-4 rp for 100 gold each, +500 or 900 gold upfront and early on, you're more likely to be gold limited than gem limited.

[vfb]

I think with magic-1 scales it's worth it for Van to build a Temple + Lab in a tribal province sometime around the end of first year, for the research benefits. You can fort it up later for 800 gold, and your PD is good enough to hold off barbarians. I'd build in a deer tribe province if possible, to try to get an AN mage for rainbow armor.

Quills are const-0 in CBM, so you usually don't need to research at all to build them in MP. I agree that you don't need the A gems until later, but when you do get there it's nice to have some saved up.

[Valerius]

I like P3D's build, though I'd probably change the W4 to S4. The E9 bless is a big help to Vanjarl thugs. The reinvigoration of 4 from E8 give them a net encumbrance of 0 and with easily forgable bracers of defense the protection bonus from E9 goes from 4 to 8 (in addition to the 2 from the bracers themselves). That makes a big difference when mistform is cast.

[Agema]

If you're blessing, I'd go first for E/N. You need to reclaim fatigue urgently, and N gives mistformed Vanjarl/drott thugs a better chance. Note that Vjarls/drotts have 8 casting fatigue, so you have to be sparing with spell buffs, especially with no or low reinvigoration (although not so bad for Vanadrott as higher A magic makes it less severe). Personally I think a big bless is a suboptimal strategy for Vanheim in any era. I'd go with VFB's pretender or something pretty close.

Start by recruiting Dwarves - best start option in terms of effectiveness and research for the cost. Vanadrott need mid-level research to kick *** (again see VFB), are overkill for low-level spells, and empty your treasury of money which could be better spent on infrastructure and armies. Consequently, ignore hiring Van heroes for the first year or so, although if someone rushes you with a SC that isn't lightning immune, a couple of Vanjarls could make it pay.

Try to find cost-effective indy research mages quickly, build castles there. Use those subsidiary castles to recruit indy researchers, and Vanjarls for general purpose (research, thugging, leading stealthy armies etc.) In the capital, start building Vanadrotts when more money comes in, although don't ignore Dwarves, they're still important.