Why I love SP and why I hate SP

[JTullman]

Love:
1. Hmmmm... let's see... every unit, nationality, type of terrain and weapon from WW2 to the present day. Yeah that's frickn' awesome!
2. The campaign engine. Everything about it!
3. The little details that really make this game pop.
4. That tiny tear that wells up in my eye every time my sniper successfully assaults a tank (against my better judgement) and leaves it in smoldering ruins. That reminds me of Metal Gear Solid.
5. The ability to customize this game and create my own materiel.
6. The tireless efforts of Don and Andy to continue enhancing this one of a kind product.
7. This community.


Hate:
1. The doushieness of many scenarios. Example: Scenario designers that love to play Chinese checkers with mines and anti-tank guns.
2. The fact that weapons are not as lethal as they should be.
3. The fact that weapons do not break down or malfunction. Exception: Vehicles immobilize, totally awesome.
4. The fact that modern jets operated by some of the best pilots in the world will fire on their own tanks, even when engaging an enemy that possesses no armor assets.
5. The lack of a high quality printed manual or strategy guide. Come on, the Dominions guys have one! Wouldn't it be awesome if you guys would pass on some of your years of strategy experience for the newcomers in book form?

Just got my butt whipped a few minutes ago and needed to vent.
Thanks!

[centurion77]

Originally Posted by JTullman

4. The fact that modern jets operated by some of the best pilots in the world will fire on their own tanks, even when engaging an enemy that possesses no armor assets.

I recall an unfortunate friendly fire incident in Afghanistan where an A-10 straifed Canadian troops despite the fact they were right beside their LAV's...

[JTullman]

I'm certain that you are correct. It looks as though some minute amount of friendly fire will be part of tactical air power for many years to come. I'm by no means denying that it exists and I appreciate you bringing that incident to my attention.

What I'm trying to indicate is that SP's level of friendly fire from the air is oftentimes completely ridiculous. Frankly, the system is almost broken. All too often I've completely ruined what would have been a nice victory because of a drunken SP pilot knocking out a critical unit.

Of course the manual and the forums have extensive advice on calling in air strikes. You know... make sure you've chosen the best entrance/exit path, make sure the sighting unit has a clear LOS, blah blah but when you really get down to it, after a certain time frame say mid '90's this doesn't reflect reality anymore. It's also terribly frustrating when battling an enemy, regardless of time frame that doesn't have armor and your overworked friends in the sky are bombing your tanks! I mean seriously!

Naturally, anyone can comb the internet and find outliers to any data set. Myself, I'm an avid Falcon 4 player and "air force" fanboy. For a civilian I have a pretty darn good knowledge of whats going on technologically speaking, at least as it pertains to this game and I feel confident in making my prior statement. How many air sorties has the U.S. flown in the past 20 years that have resulted in American KIAs. I doubt that statistic is in alignment with the way the game plays out.

Lastly, as always its not my intent to whine about this great game. This is simply one of those things that irritates me and while it is not the case with this thread... yet. When someone voices any constructive criticism about the game on this forum they are shouted down by droves of Wikipedia stooges claiming how accurate the game is when what they are really quoting is remote or obscure situations.

Sorry for rambling, thanks for the reply.

[Dion]

Know how you feel. I hate it when that happens to me too. Just remember miltary jets go very fast, and when they attack targets on the ground they can't go to slow otherwise they will fall right out of the sky because of their weight, as they are highly armored weighing tons. To fix the problem of hitting my own guys, I carefully plot the aircraft's entry point and exit point, being careful to attack targets only when friendly units are nowhere near the target. I figure there’s no way I can hit my own guys if they're not in the vicinity. When I did this I hit my own guys only one time in about 20 pass-overs. Don’t know how often it happens to you, but it’s a lot better than half the time as what was happening to me before. Found out that air strikes don’t always shoot in a strait line either. Sometimes the aircraft will be lined up for a good shot and it shoots at an angel. Don’t know if it’s a graphic problem or if has to do with the visibility or it’s a simple matter of me not knowing enough about the aircraft. Anyway with careful planning you can cut the rate of hitting your own guys by a large degree!

[JTullman]

Wow, truth be told, I'm surprised that people are only mentioning the air strike comment. Thanks for the input.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by JTullman

Wow, truth be told, I'm surprised that people are only mentioning the air strike comment. Thanks for the input.

If your main enemy is not heavily vehicle-oriented, then choosing the "COIN Fighter" formations would likely help, since they are more grunt-oriented in targeting and they also tend to have a more HE load-out than regular strike air.

But fixed wing aircraft should never be aimed at target areas within a KM or so of your own boys, best to keep them for targets way back on his baseline (e.g. killing his arty park).

But since all SP battles are within artillery range - barring any scenario the designer decided not to allow that option - if you want to deliver HE presents, then why not just use artillery?. Cannot be shot down by a lucky Dushka round. Don't care if it is night or fog (planes want to see the target for most weapons other than guided missiles). Deliver more ordnance per unit of time etc.

If the enemy has little or no AAA capability, then the attack helo and scout helos win over fixed wing air, esp for recce. And they can be reloaded too. Just don't blithely fly all over enemy territory or you can get an embarrassing burst of AK fire should you get too close. Helos are best kept on your side of the FLOT.

Or, just do not buy air, and then any points he has invested in ADA assets are wasted, bar any cannon that can do grunt-bashing on the side.

(Air would make more sense in a campaign type game, with its ability to be concentrated from airfields all over the place and far away. Whereas your supporting arty may have lagged behind. But then again, in a corps+ campaign type game I would be using my air on its natural targets - his supply dumps and convoys, counter-force on his airfields etc. after first reducing his ADA network. Only once all of that was dealt with would I use air as a tactical support - i.e. when there was nothing important for them to deal with. Like the WW2 allied forces used battleships for invasion fire support - they were not really all that good at that task (cruisers were better in terms of accuracy and weight of actual HE delivered), but by the end of the war there was nothing much else for them to usefully do, since the enemy battleships were dealt with ).

Cheers
Andy

[JTullman]

Thanks for the tip about COIN fighters Andy, never thought of that despite noticing the COIN aircraft.

Also, I agree that air power is really more of large scale item. I'm not suggesting that SP become a 'tactical air strike game'.

Given the geographical area of most maps and the amount of game time used in the average SP battle, air power should really only be a minor aspect. Of course there is defiantly room for nice, perfectly placed airstrike just in the nick of time. Not to mention the fact that air power is FUN! The issue with the game isn't one that I can see a solution to simply because from the most basic level the game doesn't simulate modern tac air methods.

Generally speaking non-strategic ground targets are attacked from the air in one of three ways.
1. Pre-Plan CAS: In this kind of operation targets are carefully handpicked on the ground well before take-off. Pilots enter the combat area and destroy the designated targets and leave the area.
2. On-Call CAS: This comes in different forms, with improved communications technology and the addition of the JSTARS aircraft/comm. system basically anyone in the service can get on the horn to strike elements. Thus during mission creation flights are designated a specific piece of the battlefield that they are responsible for. During the flight an FAC (forward air controller) who themselves are in another jet will designate targets for the CAS aircraft in real time. This could be done through ground or air based laser target designators and also good ol'fashioned white phosphorus rockets. Of course, target data is also sent through traditional radios and data links as well. Thus, the pilots enter the operational airspace and destroy targets as they come up and leave when they are relieved or when out of ammo.
3. CAS: Pilots are given a geographical area and allowed to destroy ground targets at will.

Of course these definitions are not exhaustive and there are countless variations to these. SP is not really set up for these tactics nor should it be. This is a GROUND combat game and we are privileged to have a neato air support FEATURE.
You could argue that pre-plan CAS is similar to designating "bombardment" flights before the game but this isn't a good example because you can't get "recon" on the enemy positions. What SP emulates is something in between On-call CAS and CAS whereas the player designates a hex (on-call) but when the jet actually arrives it attacks whatever they feel like (CAS).

My issue is one of common sense. I just want my jets to stop shooting my dang tanks! Jets rarely accidentally attack friendly units anymore.

[mkr8683]

It would be very cool to allow the human player to select targets for an aircraft in mid-flight. Something similar to the OpFire confirm option in SPWaW - a red line goes from the unit to a target and the game asks if you want to shoot it, and gives you five seconds to respond yes or no before it fires automatically. That would solve a lot of the issue, I think. A further option to select which weapon to fire would also be useful.

[JTullman]

Agreed

[gila]

I would forgo buying any fixed wing aircraft,too iffy until enough expertise in using them.
They are just eye candy for the game anyway,
AT Helio's used properly are more effective,and as Andy stated,they can rearmed.

Buy heavy arty with cluster bombs,add some hvy and med. morters in your golf bag way more effective and safer than strike aircraft,and some SAM teams on points of good visabilty to deter enemy air strikes