Blood SCs

[Bat/man]

Originally Posted by Fantomen

So it's a "huge nerf", that is also somehow overpowered?

Look, call it what you will. I don't think you've disputed any one of the effects that I pointed out.. I think its a nerf to pure blood nations, due to the increase in unreliability. What you think it is will depend on the kind of nations you like to play.



A large boost to cross-path blood mages is a nerf to everyone else.
Making communions essentially free is a nerf to non blood nations.
Decreasing the reliability of understood game mechanics is just a general nerf.

[Bat/man]

I don't really understand what's being argued because the idea that some mages being able of entering communions at a much higher fatigue cost than equivalent mages with astral somehow has a negative impact on the game is pretty daft.

In many cases, your fatigue level will not matter. for example:

B3: Slave: Whatever
B3: slave: Whatever
B3 slave: Whatever
b3 Master; Reinvig


Another Case:

bx master: tiny spell, tiny spell tiny spell
Bx: Slave: Whatever......
Bx: Slave: Whatever
.
.
.
.
B3: Master : tiny spell, Reinvigorate; Reinvigorate; Reinvigorate
b3 Master: Big spell, big spell, big spell..

This kind of communion depends a lot on timing.

First round: All slaves cases Slave or master
Second Round: First master casts an inconsequential spell, to prevent slaves from casting. Last master casts big fatigue spell
Third round slaves regen to under 200. Second master casts reinvig - pegging the slaves to 200. But then the reinvig drops them down to some reasonably exhausted state. Third master casts a big fatigue spell again - begging them back to 200.

So essentially the cyle becomes: Big spell; recover,.; reinvig. Big spell, recover, reinvig. Continue through five rounds of script.

And you don't have to use reinvig either. The it can be any spell that reduces fatigue.

It relies on the mechanism that it doesn't matter how much fatigue you have 0 or 199. Any spell then cast is just going to react exactly the same. Peg you to 200.

[Fantomen]

Fatigue applied to slaves from spells cast by the master don't "cap" at 200, any spill over fatigue does damage to the slaves. Reinvigoration works because it removes enough fatigue that the slaves usually don't reach 200 and start taking damage. But if they are at 199 they're gonna take quite some damage from a big spell.

What "other fatigue reducing spells" are you talking about? There is only earthpower and relief, none of which are viable for this.

But anyhow, in your example, if your "first master" casts a tiny spell each turn to stop slaves from casting. Then how is the slaves going to accidentally cast sabbath master? Because, you know, they wont cast **** either way. So in that example the change to sabbath spells makes 0 difference, except the very good difference that you don't have to micro slaves for the slaves/can place them where you want.

[Kungfoo]

Bat/man: I don't see how, in any of your examples, you've described something that's different with bloodless communions from what you'd be doing with slaves.

[Bat/man]

The last two examples were not meant to address that point Kungfoo. They were addressing:

I don't really understand what's being argued because the idea that some mages being able of entering communions at a much higher fatigue cost than equivalent mages with astral somehow has a negative impact on the game is pretty daft

ie., phrase it how you will, but the ability to enter a communion at higher fatigue is useful, when you can remove a *lot* of fatigue with just one blood slave.

Fantomen: I did a lot of testing on slave capping - but maybe I forget. I'll retest later tonight.

[Fantomen]

FYI I did test it, both with blood and astral and mixed communions, same result.

But to take the most obvious of all tests as an example: A S7 caster with 2 communicants casting master enslave kills both slaves with that single casting.

Of course I knew this beforehand, but anticipated you would pull that as your next strawman.

Someone might wonder why I bother?
It's because this kind of thing can give new players a hard time, when someone seemingly knowledgeable gives advice, but that advice turns out to be complete misinformation. Non slave sabbaths is not a nerf, not a big scripting issue. It works like an astral communion. Spill over fatigue in communions damages the slaves, you can not do any tricks by putting them at just under 200 fatigue, you need to recover them enough to withstand what your master are casting. There are no "other fatigue reducing spells" that can be compared to reinvigoration for zeroing slave fatigue, that's why you want to add a blood master. There are other clever ways to recover your slaves, like having them cast drain life, or buff them with soul vortex and giving them bodyguard batteries, pythiums communicants can be quickened and given a standard of the damned, and so on, but the principle is the same, to keep them alive you need to keep them under 200 fatigue.

While reverse communions with pure blood mages as slaves might sometimes cast sabbath master if poorly scripted, the solution is to learn proper scripting, not to blame the game or this mod.

[Bat/man]

Its hardly a strawman to say you might be right.
But thanks for the test.

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by Bat/man

B3: Master : tiny spell, Reinvigorate; Reinvigorate; Reinvigorate
b3 Master: Big spell, big spell, big spell..

iirc this doesnt work. Masters don't cast reinvig if they have no fatigue.

You need this:
B3 Master: spell, spell, Big spell, spells
B3 Master: spell, Big Spell, Reinvigorate, spells
B3 Master: Big spell, Reinvigorate, other spells
B3: Master : Reinvigorate, other spells

[Soyweiser]

Also, all your edge cases are not match for the huge boost blood nations get by just doing this:

B1H2 mage 1: sabbath master, divine blessing.
B1H2 mage 2: sabbath slave
B1H2 mage 3: sabbath slave

Not having to put all the sacred beside the fragile mages adds tons of tactical flexibility. Add that to the ability the be able to always commune even without slaves (reducing the slave costs, and the micro cost, etc). Meaning a well set up sabbath communion works every turn, and not just one turn because they ran out of slaves.

As there are no pure blood mages, having easier access to sabbaths it is a huge boost.

[Fantomen]

Originally Posted by Bat/man

Its hardly a strawman to say you might be right.

Yes it is. It's a strawman to question whether I'm right or not, rather than test it first and confirm that I'm right. A way to stale the discussion by insinuating your opponent might not know what she's talking about, in lack of proper arguments of your own. In other words, a strawman.

You can assume I test things before answering, because otherwise I'll write out clearly that I'm not sure.