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  #1  
Old January 8th, 2012, 02:46 AM

IronHat IronHat is offline
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Default British Long Compaign help

It's 1942 August and I'm having a lot of problem fighting the German's Panzer 3 M\L with the british tanks.

Earlier in 1941 I could still manage with my Valentine against the even Pz3, but the panzer3 m\l seems to just trash even the Grant in a straight fight.

The Tactic I've been using have been mainly using smoke and terrain to force the panzer 3 into close range where my tank and infantry can defeat, but it's always a tense fight.

This is my main forces

4 x rifle company.
medium infantry carry lee enfield/bren/grenade/hawkins
regular infantry carry lee enfield/bren/sten/rifle grenade

8 tubes of the captured Italian 81mm, 2 per company

8 ammo carrier 2 per company. Mainly used for my mortars

4 x 2 pounder and 4 x 6 pounder

2 x sniper with 10 fire control

16 tanks, 4 per company. previously Valentine although I'm using 8 Grants and 8 Lee currently .

1 light battery, 8 guns of 25 pounder with extra ammo.
1/2 medium battery, 4 guns of 4.5inch howitzer. Mainly reserved for counter-battery either enemy on board of off board.

I don't have core vickers as I only buy them when the map and weather is good.

One thing I noticed is that the german always seem to more tank than I do. Usually about 2 companies worth of tank against my one company worth. Admittedly they always seems to have only two companies worth of infantry compare to my 4.

Any advice would be appreciated.
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  #2  
Old January 8th, 2012, 04:33 AM

KAreil KAreil is offline
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Default Re: British Long Compaign help

Have you checked the "tank heavy"-setting in the preferences?

This could be the reason for the many tanks on the German side.



Didn't the British have the invulnerable Maltida-tanks?

You could try to disrupt the German tanks with them, drawing all their fire on them an then assaulting them with your infantry!



Just my 2 cents, altough I don't have a lot experience fighting as UK...
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  #3  
Old January 8th, 2012, 05:09 AM

Brian61 Brian61 is offline
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Default Re: British Long Compaign help

It sounds like you're on the right track though you might consider adding more ATGs into your force mix.

Shermans are just around the corner and that will, temporarily, turn the tide for the armor match up. Otherwise the only thing I didn't see listed in your tactics is the use of artillery to breakup the enemy tank formations and separate them from their supporting infantry, but I suppose you're doing that along with using your ATGs in conjunction with your tanks and infantry to deal with the panzers you isolate.

Later in the war though you'll run into this situation again when Tigers, and later Panthers, start appearing along with long gun MkIVs. It was pretty much a fact of life for the western allies.
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Old January 8th, 2012, 10:04 AM
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Cross Cross is offline
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Default Re: British Long Compaign help

I also think your force mix isn't bad. Could your tactics be the problem?

If I was to tweak your force, I'd perhaps lose at least half of the ammo carriers, as you seem to have too many. If you're just using them for mortars, you may consider cheaper ammo canisters.

Talking of mortars, the heavy 4.2in is available in July 1942, I believe.

If armour is giving you trouble, you may want to get heavier artillery which has a better chance of immobilising and even KO tanks. Cut back to only 4 25Pdrs perhaps, and get more 4.5in or better still 5.5in guns.

You could also cut back to 3 infantry coys (if the Germans are only fielding 2) and buy a few more ATk guns. ATk guns are reasonably priced in the latest release, and can be very effective against tanks.


Cross
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Old January 8th, 2012, 10:30 AM

Ts4EVER Ts4EVER is offline
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Default Re: British Long Compaign help

One thing I noticed is that you assign your tanks to infantry companies. This kind of setup works better in build up terrain or normandy than in the desert. It might be worth a try to concentrate them in one unit to get more firepower in one place. After the Panzers are taken out you can always divide them up to support the infantry.
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  #6  
Old January 8th, 2012, 10:34 AM
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Mobhack Mobhack is offline
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Default Re: British Long Compaign help

The correct tactic in the desert really is to set up in a formation that allows you to fire into the German armour's flanks at 1000m or less.

German PzIII and IV have very thin side armour (3-4 cm) and even a 2 pounder can penetrate that to a reasonable extent to 1Km. 6 pounder and grant's 75mm to ranges over 1Km. The class 7 and 8 frontal armour can therefore be sidestepped.

So - probably work 2 units/formations of tanks along the top and bottom of the battlefield and get into flanking positions, with a smaller force held back centrally in overwatch behind the infantry advance.

If you engage a panzer and it turns to face your firer then immediately look at one of the other 2 tank formations to see if one of them now has a flank (to include turret side) shot and fire that - especially if that tank is already locked onto the target in question!. Rinse and repeat if the German turns his whole tank or turret to face current firer.

That technique works in the open battle, especially where the Germans are advancing. It can be made to work in an attack, by selecting one objective area and taking and holding that and then waiting for the counter attack, with the tanks set up to flank that (you will usually know where his tanks are by then especially if you have air recce). In the attack, blow your way to an objective cluster with massed arty, relying mainly on the infantry to lead behind the creeping barrage. Don't be subtle.

You have the Lee/Grant. That can occasionally ping the class 7 frontal armour at about 750-100m. However, his long 50mmL60 sabot can get through your class 6 frontal armour on occasion too. So sit up on a higher elevation than him, and you will be classed as hull down therefore receiving less hull hits and more front turret as well as a slightly more difficult target to hit. Your little turret has class 10 armour.

Also - ensure that you bought the Lee/Grant that comes with more AP ammo. (There are ones with a bias to HE). The 37mm is rather less effective in AP than the 2pdr (which was one of the hottest in the 37/40mm class). You can also use the bren gun carrier ammo carrier version to hide behind a ridge and supply a tank up on the ridge with more ammo.

You have the 6 pounder ATG - that will slaughter the panzers from the side to 1500m or so. It will do them frontally at 5-600m as well. I tend to have 6 pounders towed by half-tracks or bren carriers, and set these up behind a hill, or on the back of a plateau where the Germans will present themselves at 300M or less. Sprinkle infantry out front to look out for dismounts. Lose any 2 pounder ATG - worthless except against light armour by then, unless in a short range flank ambush. Upgrade is only a few points so why keep them when the 6 pdr arrived?.

AI armour will often carry tank riders - so use your arty and mortars to hose down any spotted AFV. Especially, use mobile (15cwt truck will do) Vickers MMG as tank delousers. If a section falls off an AFV - then fire at that and let the area effect ping any neighbouring sections or tanks which may still have riders (and which may bot be in the MMGs LOS). Move the MMG teams as and when too much enemy attention arises (deploy with a slope behind them - they can withdraw out of LOS for vehicle pick up and redeployment).

As to arty - the + batteries of 25pdr I tend to avoid in the core. Rather too expensive IMHO, and I usually only run out of regular HE in an assault or advance when the game is already won. For the points of 2 (+) troops, you could likely have had 3 regular, and to me the extra troop is more use.

In the advance or assault - find the German armour and drench with 25pdr. If you find a platoon position then give it a battery plus of fire (2 troops) and walk the shells over these tanks for 3-4 turns. Adjust fire one hop if necessary when it has fallen to concentrate on a spotted tank.

There is no note of a core forward observer. A core FOO is absolutely vital for any army, but especially for an artillery-oriented army like the UK. He will gain experience and so will the core arty, resulting in very quick calls for fire eventually.

Sherman is about to arrive - until the end of Tunisa these are very useful tanks if the German does not have the long 75. They walk over all panzer 3 and short-barrel Mk 4. Churchills also will arrive by el Alamein - some like them, others think they are too slow.

When the Germans have the upper ATK hand - especially when long 75mm tank guns start being regular appearances - then you want to spot these things and if you cannot plink them off from a side aspect with direct fires, then drop the arty hammer on them. In the early days, the 75mm Mk4 'specials' are a rarity - and a prime target to plink at long range with your grant 75mm, as the front turret is only 5cm, so being hull down is actually a disadvantage for them..

Towed 17pdr will arrive eventually - but not worth getting IMHO. Maybe one section, but ensure they have half-track transport. Like the German 88s, they are large and obvious. Tigers are usually not spotted in numbers till Italy - a few in Tunisia maybe. If seen, direct all available arty onto these until they are reduced to a small pile of nuts and bolts.

German Nebelwerfers if they appear can be a pain - direct expert 81mm mortars (captured Italian should have the range, else 25pdr) onto those and work over the big smoke puffs they leave. if a human opponent - even more need to deal with (he will reload them, unlike the AI!).

In a nutshell:
Don't head-butt against German armour in WW2, work around their flanks. Only Tiger has decent side armour.

USA/UK/Soviet - you have the artillery advantage in real life, so don't forget that. Hammer any annoying armour with the field arty - all of it servicing the one platoon at a time, preferably, mortars reserved for the infantry. Any large pack of panzers seen especially advancing - is a prime target (tank riders).

Cheers
Andy
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  #7  
Old January 8th, 2012, 12:14 PM

phil74501 phil74501 is offline
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Default Re: British Long Compaign help

Just curious how you captured Italian mortars. I didn't know it was possible to capture another countries equipment in the game.
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Old January 8th, 2012, 01:08 PM
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Mobhack Mobhack is offline
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Default Re: British Long Compaign help

Quote:
Originally Posted by phil74501 View Post
Just curious how you captured Italian mortars. I didn't know it was possible to capture another countries equipment in the game.
See the "captured mortars" section (formation no. 216). And the captured formations in ANZAC, the amazing German kleptomania, etc.

It's easily found by looking in Mobhack, or the encyclopaedia.

Cheers
Andy
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Old January 8th, 2012, 02:04 PM

IronHat IronHat is offline
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Default Re: British Long Compaign help

thanks for all the advice

Quote:
There is no note of a core forward observer. A core FOO is absolutely vital for any army, but especially for an artillery-oriented army like the UK. He will gain experience and so will the core arty, resulting in very quick calls for fire eventually.
I actually do have FOO for each of my core coy but had forgotten about them when I listed my force . the frequent smoke and dust make it difficult to get actual sight on the target but they are nice when I can manage them

The appearance of the panzer 3 L\m took me by complete surprise. the first time I encountered them was during April 1942 and I didn't know the german had L\M then. I didn't had access to the 6 pdr or grant then so I bolted out of the area.

My main problem in meeting engagement was that my forward element would have problem resisting the german tank charge. I usually rush my leg coy and the tank forward to grab the Victory points so my 6 pdr get left behind, and it's hard to get artillery on moving tanks. I tried putting my ATG in the truck a few time but often the truck get snipe off by long range direct fire or artillery. I do have truck for all of my support weapon but they just gather dust except for the few time I use them to rush the support weapon to the front. Is there any different between the 1&1/2 ton truck and the morris 15cwt?

I also notice the enemy always seem to outnumber me. Could this be because most of my leg coys are elite or veterans by now so the AI get the points to outnumber me? It's a bit disappointing that british infantry weapon top out by 1942 except for the PIAT. Everyone else get better weapon later.
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Old January 8th, 2012, 05:09 PM
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Mobhack Mobhack is offline
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Default Re: British Long Compaign help

Me, I don't really bother too much about moving FOOs around - place them on a big hill in back and provided visibility is good you can see plenty. But I'm entirely happy to fire blind with them. (MBT is different - with access to radars or TI).

FOOS are expensive (esp in MBT with the toys!) - I only ever buy one. First item I buy in a core, so it appears right after A0 on the lists. His experience is vital for speed of call, so I never ever risk him.

Experience is primarily for speed of call, I go for the British system
- speed of response comes before any worries about accuracy - just plaster the intended area!.
- And have lots of it. It is your army's forte.
- Fire in big concentrations, don't as a rule dot arty all over the map. Drop a big sledgehammer, work the target area for 2-4 turns or so, then apply the mallet to whatever else needs a hammering.

Reserve the small on-map e.g. mortar sections/inf guns to support individual rifle coys or to pester any enemy mortars in range etc. Rifle coy HQs can call for fire, so use them - as experience grows in calling fires then their arty skill grows. Don't lose experienced coy HQS (avoid melees!).

Why charge right at the victory hexes (unless it is a good defensive area?) - set up an overwatch in a U-shaped ambush on your side and let the AI find it. Victory hexes are only totted up at end game. So no great rush - walk the grunts to them. In the meantime, whittle down his tank force.

Greatest priority really is to push the North and South flanking armour and/or carrier borne ATG so they can fire into the flanks of the central German push. If the flanking party meets a big pack doing a flank attack on their flank - then hold back and shoot them when they eventually divert towards the V-hexes is probably best. Essential that the flank armour and the central one all can fire at the same targets (must be reasonably in LOS of the middle one anyway, and not too far away - within ~30 hexes or so, depends on visibility too). Mutual support is a must.

ATG should never be in trucks, really. Too fragile, though 15cwt class is fast. The bren carrier can carry ATG, as can half-tracks and are far better as being shell-proof (plus can biff up any infantry with their MGs). Essential to deploy ATG out of LOS - crew can push them the final hex or 2 if necessary.

Trucks for the support weapons are worthless, unless you actually relocate them a lot. Plus as they increase in value from added experience then the enemy will get more points to play with but they cannot do anything with it (e.g. fire at something). Consider giving to a rifle platoon (cross attach) and upgrade to half-track. Gives you a mobile mech inf platoon for recce or objective grabbing. Get the one with a 12.7mm AAG - useful if the Luftwaffe shows up.

Yes - as you increase in experience then your core will grow in value. So the enemy will have relatively more points to spend. Duh!. (Why do folks have to keep being told this blindingly obvious fact over and over and over again?)...

That is one reason not to have worthless or expensive but limited value stuff in your core. e.g. trucks you do not use, flak if the enemy does not appear with planes much, costly ammo bunkers (as opposed to ammo trucks), armoured engineer vehicles. Too many ammo vehicles (if you find you are not using those in games). Anything that sits idle a lot and is expensive. Buy those from support points if you can get away with it. Artillery batteries (esp (+) types!) are rather expensive, so do not go overboard with core arty. One battery for a battalion (3-4 coys) - so 2 troops of 25pdr, 3 at the outside probably.

Andy
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