Artillery Delay and Supression - One Post - Two Can's of Worms

[Suhiir]

First off I want to stress these are not complaints about WinSPMBT.

These are merely my observations and opinions, and like any such others will have different ones, mine are no more "right" or "wrong" then anyone else's.

I realize WinSPMBT is not a combat simulation, it's a game, and as such some things are done for the sake of playability even if they are not "realistic".
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That said, I'd like to open a discussion on some aspects of the game I find "unrealistic".

Artillery
With the recent update the amount of delay caused/added to an artillery strike has been rather dramatically increased. I understand why this was done. Before it was too easy to march your artillery around the battlefield with little delay between barrages.
Problem is, in my opinion, they went a bit too far.
With the update you can adjust once, up to two (2) hexes with an added delay of 0.2 to the 0.1 for a second call for fire on the same hex giving a total 0.3 delay. A second adjustment adds 0.7 to this making the total delay 1.0.
Now many many moons ago I was an arty/air FO (USMC MP's do occasionally get training as FO's, or did in the 70's), and I've adjusted fire. Any single adjustment can be pretty much as large as you like and the total delay is the same whether it's 50m or 500. I fully understand the need to limit the size of adjustments in the game for both coding and playability reasons.

But...
Given that in the game your first strike usually scatters by 2,3, often 4 hexes it makes it basically impossible to drop artillery on a target in a "reasonable" amount of time.
It now takes two or three barrages to accomplish a single fire mission. So in effect the utility of mortars/artillery has been halved (or more) in game.

I'd like to see up to two (2) adjustments of two (2) hexes each allowed before the delay
climbs to 1.0. This is I think a reasonable compromise between playability and "reality".


Suppression
This is highly subjective, there's no way you'll ever please everyone on this matter, and I fully understand that sometimes game designers just have to "make a call"and let players deal with it as they will.

One person will claim any fire within sight/hearing will cause troops/vehicles to react less efficiently (i.e. be suppressed) and another will claim that unless it's clipping leaves over your head you really don't pay much attention to it.
Me, I think it's a matter of individuals, some folks will be suppressed by fire a thousand meters away, others won't slow down as the buttons are shot off their shirt.

Now we know unit morale and experience have some effect on the amount of suppression a unit gets from being fired on (or near). I'm sure Don or Andy could tell us the exact amount (if they cared to), but it's really irrelevant to this discussion. All that matters is units with better morale/experience get suppressed less. And a units rally rating determines if it can shake off suppression.

Problem is, the cumulative effect of many changes over the years have made suppression into the "normal" state of units.
Huh? Wha?

In the original game, wayyyyy back when...if a unit was fired on it got suppressed. There was little to no effect on nearby units.
Then they added that units in the same hex got suppressed as well. Makes sense to me.
Then someone said; Hey, even if you're not the unit being fired on an explosion by an RPG near you will cause you to duck. So non-artillery/bomb explosions in adjacent hexes started causing suppression.
Then another person said; Ya know, a machinegun or AGL hitting nearby isn't going to encourage you to stick your head up either. Nearby defined as an adjacent hex. OK, 50m is fairly close so I can see that.

Where the game originally had basically one source of suppression from fire (I'm not including artillery/bombs here cause their effect are basically unchanged) we now have three, two of which are area-effect.

Problem is...the values for unit morale and recovery were based on the amount of suppression generated by a single source - getting directly shot at.

Now I can't speak for everyone (and wouldn't try if I could) but I'm finding that I can't recover from the amounts of suppression being generated well/fast enough to keep a battle going. I commonly have situations where so many of my "front line" units are suppressed, retreating, routed I can't press an attack - or maintain a defense.

Some will say "good", this is how it should be. Military units are rarely physically destroyed but rather their morale is broken. And this is true.

I know we can (and I'll freely admit I do) adjust the Rout/Rally ratings in the games preferences. But should this be "necessary" to allow you to play?

From my tests I've found that setting the Rout/Rally rating to 130% seems to give "reasonable" recovery rates. Given that unit rally ratings tend to be in the 45-65 range this makes them effectively 60-85.

So my proposal is since there are now more, and larger, sources of suppression unit rally ratings should be increased by some amount (around 25%) to get "back" to the same effectiveness they had when they were originally set up.
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Feel free to add your two cents to this everyone, the whole point is to discuss the issue.

[Imp]

Nice wording there, I can see what you are saying in that if your arty misses its original target hex adjusting it onto it means that you are back to dumping only half a shell load on the hex, if it drifts again same. The old system at least allowed the second mission to be a proper FFE delivering 9/10s of the load if adjusted.
To stop chasing units maybe the first adjustment should cost 0.1 or 0.2 if done by a FOO because he is adjusting. The second should then be larger so 2 adjustments still cost 1. Have a funny feeling this could allow the 3rd move to be at a reduced rate though. Confines of the game engine.
I actually think the suppresion levels are about right it can be agravating when a large portion of your force becomes pinned but thats war.
Also if you increase rally levels routed units may cause a problem.
As it stands I think due to actions by other units (i.e. they do well & kill someone) nearby units can lose a point or 2 of suppresion. This can give a unit an extra shot or in the case of a retreating unit tip it to pinned status. In my view this is fine as suddenly that unit you thought was out of shots surprises you. And with retreating units its fine if it happens on occasion but not regulary. It would probably only take one guy to go sod this we are going to die anyway for some of the others to follow his lead.

[Wdll]

You can just not use a single arti unit to fire at a single target. Fire at least one more not on the same hex. If you see the target has moved...you get my point.

I haven't noticed any delays in arti but then again I don't usualy fire and shift fire a hex or two away.

[Koh]

When the FO has a line of sight with the target, you can easily adjust two or three times before the delay reaches 1.0. And further, when your FO has a line of sight with the target, the scatter if far less and in fact most of the time the center of the barrage hits right on the hex you ordered it in.

Now, it could be argued that it is in no way realistic to have more artillery scatter or less accurate fire or more delays when firing at targets the FO doesn't have a line of sight to. And yeah, it isn't. It takes no longer to order a fire mission to a target behind a hill than it does to a target on top of a hill. But it could also be argued that it is in no way realistic that the FO can spot the center of the barrage for a fire mission he can not see. Or that he can then adjust the fires based on the observations he did not make.

So if you ask me, it's a pretty fair abstraction and a reasonable counterweight to giving the FOs the uncanny ability to accurately adjust fires they didn't observe. Perhaps the most realistic approach (I'm not actually suggesting this to be done because if you ask me the current system is way better) would be to make the explosions of fire missions the FO doesn't have a line of sight to invisble to the player and have him adjust based on a hunch. Because that's how it would go in real life. Unless of course the FO is a superhuman who can spot the trajectory of the grenades while they are in the air and accurately calculate in his mind where they are gonna hit. Or hear the explosions and use that to determine the exact range and bearing to the center of the barrage.

-Koh

[narwan]

Just responding to the suppression issue here, not the arty.

I have little problem dealing with suppression I receive. I can can usually keep the vast majority of my troops in good fighting order. How? By using command units as command units and not as an 'additional' fighting units. This goes for platoon commanders as well as company commanders.
In a standard four unit platoon the three non command unit are your fighting force. The platoon commander has 2 tasks, to keep the other three fighting (ie rallying them) and act as a rearguard for the platoon. While the other three units are 'up front' the commander is deployed behind them. Place him within 5 hexes of the others and next to the fastest movement route (especially for infantry). If units rout they'll follow the route which costs the fewest movement points so try to position them so that they will rout towards the platoon leader.

Use the platoon leader to rally the other units in his platoon, NOT himself (unless you really, really need to). Use the company commander to rally the platoon leaders, NOT himself (again, unless you really, really need to).
Don't attach units to the company commander. Keep the company command group as small a possible. Put support units in a support platoon with their own platoon commander. Try to limit the number of platoons (incl support platoons) to 4 per company. Of these use two fighting platoons forward with the support platoon somewhat behind where they can give support to the other two. Place the third fighting platoon as a tactical reserve. This way your company commander isn't overworked.
It far more effective to have three companies each keep back one platoon as tactical reserve than it is to keep one of the three companies back completely and the other two fully committed.

Narwan

[Wdll]

What do you mean use the platoon leader to rally the units? I thought the only way to rally units was by pressing R, not that I can choose who to do it.

[Imp]

What he means is use the chain of command pressing R the unit tries to rally, then the platoon leader tries, then the company leader then your HQ so if in contact it has 4 chances to rally. Thats why the only big suppresion problem is arty because if your platoon leader follows "directing" his main role is to keep the other guys fighting. They often come with a support weapon choice as in longer range weapons which is the best choice. Platoon leaders should stay out of the fight as much as possible & only assault AFVs in dire circumstances.

This guy gives very sage advice in every post I have seen of his
Cross's are good as well & both are generally nice & clear

[Imp]

Koh
When the FO has a line of sight with the target, you can easily adjust two or three times before the delay reaches 1.0. And further, when your FO has a line of sight with the target, the scatter if far less and in fact most of the time the center of the barrage hits right on the hex you ordered it in.

You are right brain fade ignore my previos post system works very well as it stands because it eliminates the God effect you need eyeballs on target to be effective.
Perhaps the one change if does not do is GPS equiped FOOs have more chance for initial rounds to land on tarrget if no LOS

[Wdll]

Because there is any other way to use R? You just pick your suppressed unit and press R. How else can you do it?

[Imp]

Originally Posted by Wdll

Because there is any other way to use R? You just pick your suppressed unit and press R. How else can you do it?

You are toataly missing the point yes you press R thats how you do it but if your platton & company leaders are not happy the units below them now have 2 chances to rally instead of 4 & your HQ will soon fail his rally check so now you just have 1 chance.
Once a unit fails its rally check the next person up in chain of command tries if he has not yet failed his & has contact.
The changes to the radio codes a year or so back make a big diffrence modern forces can diperse a bit & still be an effective fighting force. Try it with worse radios or none & your morale will quickly fall apart.