Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)

I've been loathe to actually bring this topic up recently because I didn't feel I had played enough games with and without them to make a determination.

Now that I have, I just wanted to ask a few questions of the players, and hopefully the Dev's to see their perspective or answers to the questions.

This is two part question, really. First the Racial Specifci Pretenders, and the second the Human Pretenders.

The Racial Specific Pretender(s)

Has anyone noticed that very few of the Racial specific pretenders are worth their cost vs the "favored" pretenders?

Things the Developers avoided, maybe too well, was to not make the racial specific pretender too good that you *always* take it if you are that race.

Now this is not all the racial specific pretenders. There are good ones: Void Lord, Void Lurker, Dagon, Smoking Mirror, Jade Emperor, etc.

There are other, not so good racial specific ones, i.e. Skratti, ***** Queen, Arch Seraph, Serpent King, Divine Emperor, Great Seer of the Depths, Great Warlock.

Now I do know that a good portion of this may be personal preference.

This is my reasoning. When I pick a race, I am looking for a pretender to:

A.) Utilize the Gem (Blood Slave)/Mage power of the Race and amplify or summon what the mages could not already.

B.) Fill the gaps magically. Either for Searching, army construction (Summons to fill a weakness in the races design) or ritual/battlefield spells that add to armies.

C.) A Supercombatant.

D.) A bless effect Pretender that is also a Supercombatant.

I am trying to do this with my own preference for a pretender with the least amount of points used designing the pretender to get the scales to make up for the races default playing style.

Now in looking at most of the races, their racial specific pretender is used for A and D. Except that in a % of the cases, there is a better more survivable pretender for that.

Anyone else notice that? Am I crazy? Am I wrong?

[Saber Cherry]

Jotun's Skratti archmage is pretty decent for B. That multi-arm thing is a pretty good class C SC for Arco and the other race that gets it...

And the ***** queen is pretty good for class B, too...

***** Queen is like a slightly improved Arch-Mage. Which isn't saying alot.

I'd always take a ***** Queen over an Archmage if I had the option, though I don't know if I'd take the ***** Queen as Man, but maybe as Vanheim.

40 Cost, 1 Dominion, 0 Magic Picks, 10 Pick per new.

Decent stats and calls 'wolves' to battle with her.

The Arco and 3 other Races that are allowed the Natarajah are not what I'm talking about .

Skratti is like a big Arch-mage. 50 Cost, 1 Dominion, 0 Magic Picks, 10 Pick per new.

Maybe what I'm missing is the use of the "Arch-mage" type of Pretenders. Does everyone use them from time to time?

I find their low Domininon unattractive and the lowered stats (especially HP) a deterant.

[Saber Cherry]

Yes, I find them very useful. Only a few nations need high dominion, as far as I can tell, so I always use an archmage type unless I'm using an SC or having fun with an immortal... but the ghost king is very fun, as an immortal ethereal archmage-type (20 per path) with high dominion.

I find the immobile pretenders to be fairly useless. If they were cheaper, perhaps, or had cheaper paths, or... who knows, maybe I'd never use one no matter what=) I think they need special advantages - the fountain of blood has special advantages, but the others need them too... like spewing out gems, or functioning as some sort of magic site, or something...

[ December 02, 2003, 05:56: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Jasper]

The Ghost King isn't immortal... perhaps you're thinking of the Vampire Queen?

[Nerfix]

I have found myself using immobiles lately. The Void Lurker of R'lyeh is about the best pretender they can get, and i still think that scales are rather important. He gets two attacks, is ethereal and has a poison cloud effect(iirc) and costs hefty 0 points.

But i do find it srange that Oracles can't scry...

[ December 02, 2003, 06:06: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Jasper:
The Ghost King isn't immortal... perhaps you're thinking of the Vampire Queen?

Oh, whoops! I guess I was lucky=) I was being so careful to keep him in his dominion, too=)

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Nerfix:
I have found myself using immobiles lately. The Void Lurker of R'lyeh is about the best pretender they can get, and i still think that scales are rather important. He gets two attacks, is ethereal and has a poison cloud effect(iirc) and costs hefty 0 points.

But i do find it srange that Oracles can't scry...

Their archmage is also zero points, but can be used to sitesearch underwater... or with an amulet of fish, on land, too. Not a bad deal! The disadvantages are weak astral and low HP (assassination, seeking arrow).

But who cares how many attacks an immobile pretender gets? I really don't see that as ever being important.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Zen:
Maybe what I'm missing is the use of the "Arch-mage" type of Pretenders. Does everyone use them from time to time?

I find their low Domininon unattractive and the lowered stats (especially HP) a deterant.

I am warming to rainbow mages in Dom2. I am quite happy to have my pretender as capable researcher, site searcher, item maker, even when they have SC stats. The SC Versions will do a bit of conquering here and there but that is more a bonus than anything. I have never much liked magic rich Super combatent Pretenders - you may well lose them and half their magic. The only reason I use them in Dom2 is because they are generally the cheapest chassis for a bless effect god.

At present I'm taking "Master Liu" the Great Sage with Tien Ch'i. 21 research points (race has a -3drain scale to help pay) and excellent site searching - which is a big thing in game with 60%+ magic sites. The race design has problems but I'm coming to suspect this is in part due to bread and butter issues like the troops Tien Ch'i get not being that great. Still main theme is far from a pauper like the two Tien Ch'i sub-themes.

It would be nice if the special rainbow mages for races like Abysia, Jotun and Caelum cost a little more and started with a higher dominion. At present its too expensive to get a rainbow mage for a race needing high dominion.

cheers

Keir

[ December 02, 2003, 08:24: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

[PDF]

Originally posted by Zen:
***** Queen is like a slightly improved Arch-Mage. Which isn't saying alot.

I'd always take a ***** Queen over an Archmage if I had the option, though I don't know if I'd take the ***** Queen as Man, but maybe as Vanheim.

40 Cost, 1 Dominion, 0 Magic Picks, 10 Pick per new.

Decent stats and calls 'wolves' to battle with her.

The Arco and 3 other Races that are allowed the Natarajah are not what I'm talking about .

Skratti is like a big Arch-mage. 50 Cost, 1 Dominion, 0 Magic Picks, 10 Pick per new.

Maybe what I'm missing is the use of the "Arch-mage" type of Pretenders. Does everyone use them from time to time?

I find their low Domininon unattractive and the lowered stats (especially HP) a deterant.

Their biggest problem is the low Dominion, and now (in Dom2) their little (if at all..) Bless effect. So they are more usable for races that doesn't need high dominions and have few (or no) blessed troops - Ulm and Arco for example
But low HP isn't an issue when you just don't plan to ever fight
A rainbow mage is used for research, site search, casting of rituals and item construction from all the paths, not combat. They start with avg 2 levels in each path, but can get to 4-5 with items and a little empowerement.

In fact I prefer to play a RB over a trampling monster, maybe that's a MoM heritage !