OT: Let’s all take a deep breath

[TwoBits]

This "special consideration" argument is tangential. If Sombre indeed previously received special consideration by the Shrapnel moderators because of his contributions, it was a mistake. As said before, that kindly bit of "extra rope" only served to get him 'hung' (again, if that really was the case).

But what does that 'special consideration' have to do with the KotLK Three? Forget about Sombre - he's likely never coming back (probably as much due to his own pride and choices at this point, as opposed to anything Shrapnel has to say).

Three other people got banned though, in the heat of the moment, and as far as I know, 'special considerations' had nothing to do with that! And several other people have (or said they will have) taken a permanent walk.

So lets just forget about Sombre the Martyr (love him or hate him) for a moment, and consider for a minute if those other folks got a fair shake.

[Stagger Lee]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

...
But what does that 'special consideration' have to do with the KotLK Three?
...

Are they now known as the Knights of the Long Knives?

[llamabeast]

Would starting with a temporary ban have changed the final outcome in this case, either for Sombre or for the public reaction?

In my opinion, clearly yes. I'm very surprised not everyone thinks the same thing. The public reaction has been the damaging thing, and I can't imagine anything like the same public reaction to a temporary ban. If multiple temporary bans led eventually to a permanent ban, there would be no outcry because it would have been obvious that it was coming.

In my opinion the single biggest lesson Shrapnel should take from this is never to permanently ban someone without resorting to temporary bans first.

[Humakty]

Truly, does it matter ? Admins and mods seem to have decided to have a firm attitude around here, and opposing them directly will only, most likely, reinforce their resolution. They ask for some discipline around here, they could have to answer to what is allowed on their forum as far as I know.

But permanent ban from a game forum is a harsh punishement indeed. But if everyone camps on its positions, the holder of the place wins the day. I mean that, of course he will.

[lch]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

If multiple temporary bans led eventually to a permanent ban, there would be no outcry because it would have been obvious that it was coming.

ACK. As somebody who found out late about this when it all was over, the only thing I can say is: I didn't see it coming, but I am not surprised.

[Gandalf Parker]

Much of this strikes me as a moot point if even that.
I understand why some people here feel this is new territory to be debated but others might remember that this conversation has all gone on before. I can remember at least 3 of similar levels. Useful popular person banned followed by public commentary and volunteers joining in exile.

Also, of the 4 people involved, I can only think of one who MAYBE did not amount to raising his hand and volunteering to be nuked. Who MIGHT come back.

[TwoBits]

Well Gandalf (and to be sure, I've definitely noticed the numerous useful contributions you've made to this site), I've only been around since 07, and I can't remember anything like this (meaning, banning for anything other than cheating or piracy, etc.). So forgive me if it's all still a big ugly shock to me, despite the whole affair undoubtedly being a familiar stock story to some (and I can genuinely see that, but I don't hang out at many other forums - I guess I don't get out much).

And as far as the four people involved, if there's only one who got 'the shaft' (meaning, was not treated equitably by the Shrapnel powers that be), that's still one too many, whether or not they're willing to swallow their pride (and I think there should be a whole heck of pride-swallowing going on at this point, all around, but I doubt it will happen) and want to come back.

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

Much of this strikes me as a moot point if even that.
I understand why some people here feel this is new territory to be debated but others might remember that this conversation has all gone on before. I can remember at least 3 of similar levels. Useful popular person banned followed by public commentary and volunteers joining in exile.

Also, of the 4 people involved, I can only think of one who MAYBE did not amount to raising his hand and volunteering to be nuked. Who MIGHT come back.

[Hadrian_II]

Personally i think that the whole sombre banning was a huge mistake, but i also know that shrapnelgames owns the forums, and that they may do whatever they want in them.

But even if sombre had a tendency to answer in the RTFM style and i can understand that people might be annoyed by him. But i think the big problem is that if you try to make a place nice by removing all bad influence from it you tend to remove all people from the place in the end, as everyone has bad days when he acts bad. So in my opinion banning sombre because he was not a nice guy is much worser, that to loose some people who expect that everywhere they go everything has to be made nice and clean for them, as i think that this kind of people cannot be a benefit to a community.

Also a lot of arguments are made because the "rules" where broken, i think all these arguments are worthless, as you may kick someone because he is negative for the community, but if you kick a good and creative person because he does not abide the rules it starts to look like trashy satire about the soviets.

btw. i hope my bad writing skills combined with my medicore grasp of english were able to make some sense.

[GrudgeBringer]

I am older than most in this forum and I have no dog in this hunt. However, that being said I was a paid Moderator for Sierra in the mid 90's to around 2002. I was what they called a red shirt, when I entered the room my icon turned RED and everyone knew the MAN was there (I played the games also).

We had baiters to see how far they could push me before I kicked them out, and we had times when a cooling off period was called for.

I had 3 triggers...1. I just booted them completely out of SIGS and they could come back in 2 minutes. 2. A one week Ban (that could be appealed to the Gods that be) 3. A complete ban (that I had to fill out a whole ton of paperwork on why, etc).

I only say this because I see both sides....

Sombre and I had a set to the first 3 days I was on here and asked a question he thought was beneath anyone answering (especially him). Well, not being the backing off type we went at it for 3 pages and then it just went away. To this day I think he is a P***K.

But he also made a lot of mods that I used and enjoyed and to be honest we never spoke to one another agian.

What I DON'T understand is why he wasn't just taken aside at some point and givin an ultimatum. OR, just told to stay out of the forum if he couldn't keep his mouth shut (he never played any games anyway) or this would be the outcome. This isn't the first time his sarcastic tone was used in here and he probably DID run off a few. But what I have found in life is that those people make themselves seem MORE important by belittling others.
But he certainly was gifted in his own world of modding.

I am good friends with Truman and FL and will more than likely be on both forums because I DO have friends on both forums.

What I don't understand is this (and it is my opinion and we all know what opinions are like). You either TRUST your mods to make the right decision or you don't. The problem I see is that Shrapnel doesn't really give the mods any power other than the respect they have earned themselves on here.

Then when a problem arises the Big Guns come in and start blasting away because it IS their forum and they want it run a certain way. I think we all down deep know that it is their ballgame and their rules (I mean if you are playing BB in a gym and keep knocking people to the floor, someone is going to ask you to not come back regardless if you are Mike Smith or Mike Jordon).

Good 'ol' Mikes friends are going to leave and not come back, but new guys are going to come in and the game goes on.

So I am saying this...AGIAN you either trust your mods or you don't. Give them some actual power and they will nip this stuff in the bud because they are HERE on the forum. Only bring the big guns when the mods yell for help, let them police the forum and hand out minor infractions (after all, from what I have seen they have all earned respect on here from the players) Only have the big guys when the wagons have to be circled and we wouldn't be having these problems, and I wouldn't have to write a manuscript.

[Rookierookie]

What I DON'T understand is why he wasn't just taken aside at some point and givin an ultimatum. OR, just told to stay out of the forum if he couldn't keep his mouth shut (he never played any games anyway) or this would be the outcome.

I am under the impression that this was in fact the case, except it was done in private.

Only bring the big guns when the mods yell for help, let them police the forum and hand out minor infractions (after all, from what I have seen they have all earned respect on here from the players) Only have the big guys when the wagons have to be circled and we wouldn't be having these problems, and I wouldn't have to write a manuscript.

I believe that this was also what happened, it was the mods who chose to refer to the admins.