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  #61  
Old November 24th, 2012, 06:08 PM

johan osterman johan osterman is offline
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Default Re: Dominions 3 no longer available from Shrapnel?

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Originally Posted by Soyweiser View Post
Hell... I even welcome more piracy of dom3. So it has more players. I like the game so much that I do not even care if illwinter is paid. (And as illwinter does not care about the money, they should not care about this either).
Who has decided illwinter doesn't care about money? Just because they aren't money maximising homo economicus doesn't mean that they don't prefer to have more money than less money. That they mostly work on stuff because they enjoy it doesn't mean that they are saintly hermit developers that have turned their backs on the world and reject wordly goods. If they were utterly uninterested in monetary compensation they would obviously not bother with publishers at all. This is not a black and white issue where you either only work for money or only for fun.*

As an aside both JK and Kristoffer has for periods of time cut down on their day jobs, thus earning less in order to work on illwinter stuff. They aren't for the most part dependent on the money from sales, though I know JK at least would quit his day job if illwinter had ever generated enough to live comfortably of.

*I have some trouble expressing myself, but what I am trying to get at is that they make games for fun, and would probably do this or something similar wether people bought the games or not. But that if illwinter generated enough money to provide a comfortable living while still being fun they would prefer to live of that rather than punch the clock.

Last edited by johan osterman; November 24th, 2012 at 06:24 PM..
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  #62  
Old November 24th, 2012, 06:36 PM

johan osterman johan osterman is offline
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Default Re: Dominions 3 no longer available from Shrapnel?

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Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker View Post
Positions still likely to be filled are Servers, and Wiki. Positions becoming available are Support, PR, Advertising, Newsletter Editor. Step on up folks.
I think you are vastly overestimating what sort of revenue illwinters sales generates.
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  #63  
Old November 24th, 2012, 06:42 PM

johan osterman johan osterman is offline
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Default Re: Dominions 3 no longer available from Shrapnel?

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Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker View Post
Everything has its pros and cons. That discussion is also in many threads here. But the support level for DD goes up tremendously.
For the most part JK dosn't seemed to be swamped by the support requirements put up by COE's presence on Desura or steam, it seems to run relatively smoothly with modest interferance.

Edit: I might also add that COE3 sells decently without any active marketing, though obviously the 10usd pricetag is a factor in that.

Last edited by johan osterman; November 24th, 2012 at 06:52 PM..
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  #64  
Old November 24th, 2012, 06:54 PM

elmokki elmokki is offline
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Default Re: Dominions 3 no longer available from Shrapnel?

I wonder where the "Illwinter doesn't care about money" even came from, probably popped from a certain forum member during CoE3 development and features. Especially seeing how the games aren't freeware "money isn't the first priority" sounds so much more plausible.
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  #65  
Old November 24th, 2012, 07:02 PM

momfreeek momfreeek is offline
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Default Re: Dominions 3 no longer available from Shrapnel?

Just the usual misunderstanding and exaggeration I'd have thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker View Post
Illwinter has tried many times to explain their position on this. Money was never a motive. More money is unlikely to change what they do and why. They have day jobs and they do this for their own fun. It is driven and guided more by player appreciation.
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  #66  
Old November 24th, 2012, 08:39 PM
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Gandalf Parker Gandalf Parker is offline
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Default Re: Dominions 3 no longer available from Shrapnel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johan osterman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker View Post
Positions still likely to be filled are Servers, and Wiki. Positions becoming available are Support, PR, Advertising, Newsletter Editor. Step on up folks.
I think you are vastly overestimating what sort of revenue illwinters sales generates.
OH I didnt mean PAID positions with Illwinter. Just that they could be filled if someone wanted to step up.

The complaints about how things were done in the past dont have to be JUST complaints now that people can step up and do them themselves. But thank you for showing up. I will gladly step back now.

Last edited by Gandalf Parker; November 24th, 2012 at 08:57 PM..
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  #67  
Old November 24th, 2012, 08:52 PM
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Gandalf Parker Gandalf Parker is offline
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Default Re: Dominions 3 no longer available from Shrapnel?

From a previous conversation about how more money might cause Illwinter to do a Dom4:
Quote:
> And I am not sure Illwinter would dream and give enough love (and money)
to make it a reality

No, we dont dream of making a million sales dom4. Our funds are rather
limited and we both have full time jobs (teacher and computer engineer).
We arn't very interested in money, but we've earned a bit on dominions. We
make what we like and if others like it as well we are pleased. Currently
I'm more interested in making another game than working on a new version
of a game I have developed for 10 years. It gets boring, at least the less
creative parts such as interface etc.

I feel more gratified by positive feedback of a few people I like and
respect, than with vast sale numbers of a game I do not like, or haven't
made myself.
===================================
[quote Johan Osterman:]
Quote:
Illwinters interest in these matters are to do stuff they enjoy and avoid
hassles, with the bonus of making a few bucks out of their hobby.
================================================== =======
[also Kristoffer O:]
Quote:
About not knowing what to do applies to my normal salary as well. I sort
of dislike money and don't like to do much, apart from games that is. I'm
quite content with what I have.
=====================================
Disclaimer: This is from a large collection of quotes from Illwinter Devs, interns, and associates over the years. My only reference to money was in response to thoughts that more money was a reason to anything in the past, or might make major changes in the future. But of course, things change. I would greatly appreciate any new googlable articles and interviews especially if they shed new light on this subject.

Last edited by Gandalf Parker; November 24th, 2012 at 09:00 PM..
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  #68  
Old November 24th, 2012, 10:35 PM

Valerius Valerius is offline
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Default Re: Dominions 3 no longer available from Shrapnel?

Gandalf, this seems to be a non-issue. No one is arguing that a "do this if you want to make money" approach is an effective way to make requests of IW. But that doesn't mean money is irrelevant to them. As Johan just pointed out, if it had no value there's nothing stopping them from releasing their games as freeware. This isn't a black and white thing were either money doesn't motivate you at all or it's your highest priority.

And I don't see any contradiction between what Johan just said and the comments you quoted. KO appears to tend more towards the ascetic and for all I know perhaps he'd also miss teaching. But JK is also a programmer in his day job and so while parts of game development may be boring I don't imagine all of the projects he works on day to day are that exciting either (and Johan has just said that if IW could make a living as a game developers JK at least would be interested in doing so). In short, making more money from developing games means that they might also be able to have more fun by giving up their day jobs to work on games full time.

So I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make. If it's that it's preferable to be courteous when requesting things from the developers, I think most people would agree with you. And I'd be surprised if IW feels alienated by the Dom community since I think the community has been appreciative both of the game they created and the continuing patches several years after the game was released. While a portion of the community doesn't like Shrapnel, I've never seen that spill over to IW. But appreciating what the developers have done doesn't mean the community can't make suggestions or offer constructive criticism. You give the impression that you think the game(s) are perfect as-is and any criticism or suggestions (regardless of whether the request is politely made or not) are an attack on the game/developers and needs to be countered or dismissed. I don't think that's a helpful approach.
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  #69  
Old November 24th, 2012, 11:13 PM
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Gandalf Parker Gandalf Parker is offline
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Default Re: Dominions 3 no longer available from Shrapnel?

All I have ever asked is that people drop the expert opinions of "you will crash and burn if you dont", and replace it with please and thankyou.

Or at least, I used to. Pardon me for being trained over time to more cynicism and sarcasm. You defend well. Please, proceed.

Last edited by Gandalf Parker; November 24th, 2012 at 11:32 PM..
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  #70  
Old November 25th, 2012, 02:01 AM

jBrereton jBrereton is offline
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Default Re: Dominions 3 no longer available from Shrapnel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker View Post
Well they generated LPs which generated a lot of people. Whatever. Same thing, different words.

OK so if Steam is going to be the only PR then who is taking in the Steamers? I dont steam so I dont really know. Steam has forums doesnt it? And some sort of game server arrangement?
Problem solved?
Steam has forums, but they're generally not that heavily-used if and when there are alternatives, and tend to only flare up whenever every single server goes on fire or whatever, at which point they get dogpiled with helpful and completely unhelpful users Saying Words About How The Internet Is.

Steam itself is not so much a website (although I suppose it basically is a series of them) as an application which stores and promotes digitally distributed games, and also allows you to have a contact list you can message, and so on.

The kicker is that it has a completely massive base of users. Everyone who ever bought Half-Life 2 back in the day will have Steam (over 6.5 million, or roughly 15 Bristols). Many, many people who have no interest in HL2 but wanted access to the thousands of other games on there will have Steam.

I have no idea about how Valve cut deals on getting stuff on there, and they'll definitely want a commission. But the collection of games on there is extremely broad. I have a pretty alright, if not huge, array of games on there myself, which goes from the original Microprose X-COM series, to a game called AaAaAA!!, about throwing oneself off buildings for points, to Counter-Strike.

Regarding servers, it varies by game. Even if it provided its own for Dom3 (not massively likely), taking the P.W. Botha approach and saying 'those crazy steam youths with their jazz music and such can leave us alone, thankyewverymuch' is not the way to keep any game from becoming moribund, though.
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