How do I use ammo trucks?

[runequester]

I bought two ammo trucks for my campaign force... but how do I actually use them ?

[gila]

I'll bet most here will say they are best used for artillery far to the rear,and i would agree.
Some artillery units have low ammo loads and fire more than one round per turn and will run out soon.
So having an ammo truck close by to artillery parks is essential ,I always save some support points in order to buy as much as i can.
But,if your not as much into "large" battles and/or artillery,kept far back as possible in cover, but not too far they can be very useful as well,replenishing hardfighting undamaged armor.
Not as useful for infantry as usually when they run low they are too shot-up to be effective, better to save their hides for the next battle.
If you are asking how they actually work as in resupply,
just move adjacent to or in the same hex.
If neither unit is too suppressed or performs any action for a turn resupply should occur sometimes partial it may take more than one turn.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by runequester

I bought two ammo trucks for my campaign force... but how do I actually use them ?

Game Guide->Frequently Asked Questions->"How do I reload ammo"

Cheers
Andy

[runequester]

Thanks guys.

[Charles22]

Come on guys, wise up. Speaking in gamewise terms only, not that there's anything wrong with wanting to play with only a core force, or wanting to replicate something of a historic force in core, just why would you buy non-combatant units in your core? Any unit without a weapon, buying it in core, deprives that unit of practically any useful gain that time would bring a unit in core, plus it's points that would be much better spent on something else that would benefit from being in core.

Buying a truck section, through support, for your 88's, is far better than buying those same units in your core. The suppport trucks are exactly the same as a new truck was should you had bought it in core.

Now somebody correct me if I'm wrong about this, but the only useful role that a truck might have might work the opposite way, where you might prefer that the truck type unit be cowardly, in other words, that it might even drop it's load even if it's not being fired upon (though ammo trucks have no load capacity) should suppression go up or that it retreat in such circumstances. What's more, if I'm not mistaken, I think trucks are very poor, if they will manage it at all, of dropping a unit when under fire. Part of that is because the load isn't riding on it's back like on an AFV, but also because trucks often don't survive long enough under fire to get unloaded. Same goes for HT's, though HT's actually benefit from being in core because they have weapons.

Yes, I'm sure I had probably bought trucks in core once upon a time, but I wised up afterwards. If there is ANY benefit to having trucks in core, especially ammo trucks, which don't even have a unit loaded, at least winSPWW2 allows you to add to your core later, so you can then add combatant units in core to make up for the truck inclusions. If trucks of any sort would unload their cargo (or resupply) faster due to increased experience/morale because they were in core, well then there's some point, but I doubt very heavily that is so, and even if it is, it's probably negligible compared to the support trucks.

Here's one last little tidbit to nibble on. Let's take your 88 platoon with trucks for example. One of your trucks gets heavily suppressed (unladen) and you want to rally it. Unfortunately your 88's are also heavily suppressed. Naturally, you should rally the 88's to some extent, first. Now each unit, should the unit leader fail to rally it at some point, will turn to the platoon leader for a rally. Once that platoon leader fails to rally a unit there is no more rallying that turn (forget company commander for a moment, as he's too far away) from the platoon leader. Wouldn't your trucks -and- your 88's benefit more from being in seperate sections? More leaders (two sections instead of one platoon) means 100% more rallies. The only benefit having those trucks in a core 88 truck platoon that I can see is if the leader is a member of one of the 88's, therefore rendering the trucks a slightly greater rally ability over time than a support truck section leader would, BUT, it's real difficult to have 100% improvement, which having an extra leader through another section would bring. I understand, in many cases, not wanting a bunch of sections all over the place to carry out that advantage isn't very desireable, but I am talking only in the case of a useless unit, the truck, that there is actually cases that you are better off having them in support instead.

So to answer the original question, of how to use ammo trucks, my direct answer is to not buy them in core for a start.

Happy hunting.

[RERomine]

Well, there is merit in what you said Charles. I'm not a big fan of having trucks to begin with. Too easy to kill.

Since the question involves ammo trucks, it's different. If you are using only your core and no support points, the quick answer is you have them in your core so you can have them at all. If, on the other hand, you are using support points, there are advantages to having an experience ammo truck verses something running the national average.

The ammo truck has to be in good order to resupply. If it's running away, it does no good and a more experienced ammo truck will hang longer.

Another one is simply to make sure you always have ammo resupply. There are battles where you just don't get many support points to use. Spending 10% of your support points on ammo trucks, when you would rather spend them on something specifically useful for that battle makes the choice somewhat difficult. You've got a Defend battle and 500 support points, what do you do? Spend 50 on ammo trucks? Buy 25 obstacle points? Get a couple of additional AAA units? By ammo trucks being in your core, it removes them from this equation. Overall, it still boils down to preference.

As far as just trucks, there are different reasons, some less tangible than others. I've had forces start with trucks in my core because I needed transport and couldn't afford tracks out of the gate. As soon as practical, I upgrade to tracks. Until I get to that point, I prefer to have the trucks integrated with the unit in question. It makes overall organization easier knowing squads B0, B1, B2 and B3 go with trucks (and eventually tracks) B4, B5, B6 and B7.

The example about 88s is very case specific since they (the 88s) draw a lot of fire and need moved frequently. In those cases, it helps to keep the transports in good order, but when used as infantry transports, once they have dropped them off they just have to scoot for cover. If they happen to get suppressed while loaded, rallying the truck rallies the carried unit. Once they are empty, I don't worry that much about rallying them except to try to keep the alive.

Overall, I don't like to use trucks, core or not. Sometimes, they are just a necessary evil.

[Charles22]

RERomine: I knew there were a few holes to my argument, the "get a unit cheap to upgrade to what you really want later (HT's)" was certainly one of them.

You've got a Defend battle and 500 support points, what do you do? Spend 50 on ammo trucks?

Precisely, or, perhaps better yet, choose so as to make the last 25pts. to an ammo truck, so that you don't get stuck with two if you only want one. If I think I need any resupply, ammo trucks are the first thing I pick, so as not to forget them. Should I forget them it's back to a reload to start all over again.

As far as ammo trucks go, whether core or not, consider the following, which is simplfying the problem here. Let's say an SS infantry platoon and ammo truck cost the same (SS infantry is actuaslly cheaper at the start):

9/39 - SS core infantry 75exp (let's ignore morale for the time being)
ammo truck support - 64exp support

10/39 - SS core infantry 80exp
ammo truck support - 64exp

5/40 - SS inf 83exp
ammo truck supp - 64exp

The other way around, your ammo truck, which cannot fight gains from 64 to maybe 75exp, but not that it matters, since it cannot but be used as a target, "while" your support SS inf stays with the mere 75exp throughout. As the war grows longer, should neither unit suffer damage in the core spot, the difference becomes more profound, as having an SS unit with over 100exp is constantly being replaced (or some other equal costing unit) SS units which are 'decreasing' in value, such that your '45 SS inf might be 65exp, while your core one would had been in the 100's. I don't think having a 100exp ammo truck helps, really. I don't think they unload any quicker, because I don't think the code was written to cover such obscure things as how quickly they unload tied to exp/morale. I know for a fact it doesn't make a difference with ordinary trucks, though, as I said, the trucks ability to cower, if there is one, would make really poor morale or experience possibly preferable to what is generally accepted as being good. Do my SS inf to truck comparison over a larger scale, say comparing an entire platoon or two of the very same units and the fighting quality of your overall force be3comes profoundly weaker. Of course, if one is in the habit of losing half our core, or half of the entire army, I can certainly understand how seeing the support forces as inferior would have pretty much a hollow ring (not that such a thing would describe anyone).

I just don't see any way around it, as trucks (with the exception of buying a cheap unit to upgrade later) and ammo trucka are a waste in core. You spoke of wasting 10% of support on ammo trucks, but it's not like your core gets off scott free having them there. Oh sure, it's a lesser percent of a larger total in core, but the points put to your overall army (core and support) is precisely the same, and some of them benefit from being in the core and some of them do not, so why not put the do-nots in support? Perhaps if your core is stronger, like with no trucks (though I carry 4 HT's, which are combatants) then the support you pick won't be so crucial? In a meeting engagement, for example, I almost feel guilty picking over 300pts. though 500 is available. Why is that? Partially because I'm not wasting points on non-combatants and have a more satisfying force. Frankly if it weren't for possibly wanting air support in that situation, which I cannot get in core, I would only be picking support just to have some units, that don't cause me total bleeding. IOW, it feels good to have some units whose loss only means a popint loss, rather than also exp/morale losses that fixing or replacing a core unti can involve.

As assualting or being assulted, goes, however, that's often different as you have more reason to need support, but IMO the support totals are then so overwhelming that it's just making it far too easy for myself to select all that support. So as I do things, you can see that having the habit of selecting trucks, ammo trucks, 1 inf platoon, perhaps some air support, and maybe a tank section have little to do with worrying about those trucks being spent there when the totals are so immense to start with. Nonetheless, my main point is not to say that somehow our support is all the more greater for one method or the other, largely because as I see it, the support force is pretty much just a pool I use to soak up some fire and also to provide what is either non-essential, unavailable, or makes no sense in core.

I can see wanting to have perhaps an 8 unit platoon, four of which are trucks, just to sort of keep them together, but then that's part of the problem isn't it (just ignoring trucks as a waste in core for the moment)? Get some or all the trucks destroyed after a bombardment that is merely trying to supress that infantry, and your poor infantry start suffering additional damage due to the destroyed trucks suppressing them (and since we get them in the same platoon to keep them together, why would you send them abroad only to become seperated?). Ordinary foot infantry doesn't have that problem, as they are plagued less by no trucks about them being destroyed from the same platoon (though the range of the destruction from the unit in question counts I'm sure).

So you might say, suppose I just absolutely had to have mobility for that foot platoon in the form of trucks, what would work better? Simple, a different platoon of "support" trucks. Not only is there an "additional" command to rally 4 of those 8 units, but the trucks don't have to stick around that infantry and can deliver them and get out of harm's way possibly easily. Tie them to that platoon and they will suffer suppression often enough for going to the rear and help with towing or loading some other things. You see? More versatility and no penalty for being support from other formations.

Oh, one last thing on keeping the core to it's heights of effectiveness, I'm sure there are those who tire of the advantages that having combatamt units very highly experienced may often make beating the AI even more of a cakewalk, and to such a viewpoint I have no answer, other than to play shorter campaigns.

[montieth]

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I worked up a proper staff table for a Recce Regiment. I even included the Admin troop which was 15cwt and 3 tonner trucks along with a Signals troop which was 3 15cwt trucks and 3 jeeps. I'm only slighty annoyed that I can't find single place motorcylces for the Don Rs :-).

When I realized there were Ammo trucks and crates, the TO&E was modified a second time part way through a game trying to figure out correnct arrangements. This time with the Squadron HQ of 1 Jeep, 1 LRC (Humber Ironsides MK III) 6 15cwt trucks and 5 3 tonners. Some of those are stores, some are ammo. The stores trucks and HQ unit are set up in the rear (town or field under cover) and the 2nd HQ element (the LRC is the OC's rover) stays there. I can take a jeep and lead the 2 or three ammo trucks to go and resupply a Recce Troop which will pull back from the probing and resupply them I think. (I haven't had time to put this to the test)

Suffice to say, on a BIG map, your support elements aren't going to be too far away. You DO need to escort them. Even dispatch riders, when things were dicey with germans still about, got an escort by the Division's Armoured Cars. Once you have contact with the enemy, your armoured cars should be used for rear area security and escorting of your supply columns forwards to resupply points for your units that are on the front lines. If you make the ammo smaller, in the form of ammo cannisters, I would think you can drop them off the bigger trucks, send the infantry's transport back to collection points and get that.

If you're going to be realisitc, you need to account for the need for Beans and Bullets, at least once a day.

[DRG]

It's simple really.... this is not and never was intended to be a game where logistics have anything but a perhiperal use so we are not concerned with "Beans and Bullets" beyond a rudimentary resupply capability and there is absolutly no purpose in the game for "Don Rs " ( or dispatch riders for those who don't know what a "Don R" is ) and. more importatly, neither Andy not I have the least bit of interest in making it so and I really don't belive the vast majority of players would appreciate an expanded logistics role in the game.

That said, MOBHhack is included so players can modiify things to suit they're particular needs and interests so have fun that's why it's there

I can appreciate why your background would lead you to have a greater interet in that area. However, consider that in the game "a BIG map" covers an area only 2.5 x 2 miles with half that being the enemies part of the front so at best a big map may may represent a mile or so from the actual fighting and most people don't use a really big map to fight on nor the maximum number of turns




Don

[montieth]

It's simple really.... this is not and never was intended to be a game where logistics have anything but a perhiperal use so we are not concerned with "Beans and Bullets" beyond a rudimentary resupply capability and there is absolutly no purpose in the game for "Don Rs " ( or dispatch riders for those who don't know what a "Don R" is ) and. more importatly, neither Andy not I have the least bit of interest in making it so and I really don't belive the vast majority of players would appreciate an expanded logistics role in the game.

I'm a realism guy as you probably figured out by now. I will point out, that from an organizational standpoint, a Don-R was an established element down to front like units. From a Recce perspective, the Don R-s would either hang out at Squadron HQ OR they'd trail behind the probing armored cars as the last man in. If things went pear shaped, they'd move back to the rear. Using them for a trailing element allows for them to ALSO know where the armoured cars are when they turn into a harbor at night. From a resilience standpoint, jeeps are in the same durability range as a Don-R is.

However, consider that in the game "a BIG map" covers an area only 2.5 x 2 miles with half that being the enemies part of the front so at best a big map may may represent a mile or so from the actual fighting and most people don't use a really big map to fight on nor the maximum number of turns

50 meters per hex right? 160x200 hexes are the largest maps I've seen. that's 8000 meters by 10,000 meters. That's nearly 5 miles by 6.2 miles.

Mind you, I was not asking for Don-Rs. I was pointing out, that there is a context for vulnerable vehicles in the FEBA doing their normal business and that when you DO have to move such vehicles forwards it should be under the auspices of some sort of escort. That's one of the duties of Armoured cars. Don-Rs would be, for the most part, be entirely abstract in purpose for the game and I realize that. Though, I suppose it would be interesting as a means of maintaining contact for morale purposes between two levels of HQ. But then we'd have to hang out the Royal Signals lamp and establish a Signals Office somewhere. ;-)