5 Carriers versus 2 Starbases

I have been doing tradeoffs for starbases versus heavy carriers for defending warp points to launch 400 heavy fighters in one turn onto the strategic map. Here is the design I plan to use - number of the component to include, name, size, damage, cost in minerals/ organics/ radioactives, then total size/ damage/ costs.

1 - Starbase hull when selected 2500/0/0
1 - Master Computer III 20/20 4000/1000/1000 same
1 - ECM III 10/10 400/0/0 same
1 - Scattering Armor III 50/150 500/0/100 same
6 - Stealth Armor III 30/100 700/0/200 - 180/600 4200/0/1200
8 - Phased Shield Generator V 40/40 800/0/0 - 320/320 6400/0/0
9 - Shield Regenerator IV (not V) 20/20 850/0/260 180/180 7650/0/2340
The same as the base I posted in "ripper beams" without the Combat Sensors and Multiplex tracking.
Total non fighter 760/1280 25650/1000/4640
50 - Fighter Bay III 30/30 200/0/0 1500/1500 10000/0/0
Each is 90 cargo launch 1/combat and 4/game. So total is 4500 cargo 50/combat 200/game
12 - Cargo Bay III 20/20 200/0/0 240/240 2400/0/0 total 3000 cargo
Total fighter components 1740/1740 12400/0/0 and 7500 cargo
Grand total 88 components at 2500/3020 38050/1000/4640
Ratio nonfighter to fighter 0.43/0.73 - 2.1/all/all
With heavy fighters at 25 cargo each the base can hold 300 - spare space for attritition.
Shields are 3000 and regenerate 180 per combat turn.

1 - Heavy Carrier hull when selected 600/0/0
1 - Master Computer III 20/20 4000/1000/1000 same
1 - ECM III 10/10 400/0/0 same
1 - Scattering Armor III 50/150 500/0/100 same
3 - Stealth Armor III 30/100 700/0/200 - 90/300 2100/0/600
4 - Phased Shield Generator V 40/40 800/0/0 - 160/160 3200/0/0
3 - Shield Regenerator IV (not V) 20/20 850/0/260 60/60 2550/0/780
5 - Quantum Engine III 10/20 460/0/80 50/100 2300/0/400
1 - Solar Sail III 20/20 400/0/100 same
1 - Cloaking Device III 40/40 2000/0/700 same
Total non fighter 500/860 18050/1000/3680
20 - Fighter Bay III 30/30 200/0/0 600/600 4000/0/0
Each is 90 cargo launch 1/combat and 4/game. So total is 1800 cargo 20/combat 80/game
5 - Cargo Bay III 20/20 200/0/0 100/100 1000/0/0 total 1250 cargo
Total fighter component 700/700 5000/0/0 and 3050 cargo
Grand total 45 components at 1200/1560 23050/1000/3680
Ratio nonfighter to fighter 0.71/1.23 - 3.6/all/all
With heavy fighters at 25 cargo each the carrier can hold 122 - spare space for attritition.
Shields are 1500 and regenerate 60 per combat turn.

Two bases launch 100/combat 400/game hold 600 fighters and have 176 components
Five carriers launch 100/combat 400/game hold 610 fighters and have 225 components
Two bases are 6000 shields and 6040 damage. Two bases cost 76100/2000/9280
Five carriers are 7500 shields and 7800 damage. Five carriers cost 115250/5000/18400

Carriers move 11 on the strategic map. Bases cannot move unless you put an Emergency Propulsion V pod on them, in which case they can move 5.
Carriers cost 151%/250%/198% compared to bases for the same fighter capability.
Total unit cost per hits to kill for carriers is 120%/190%/156% compared to bases.
If damaged but not destroyed, there are 27% more components on the carriers to be repaired.

My conclusions - for defending a warp point bases make more sense than carriers. Especially since the bases can be refit for other purposes, while carriers require 50% components be fighter bays. Furthermore unless you are doing a long range rampage through enemy territory, it makes more sense to use EPP equipped bases and move forward one system at a time, consolidating your gained territory. A colony can store fighters in cargo facilities and launch 1000 per game turn, so there is no need for carriers at your colonies.

To summarize - massed carriers are NOT cost effective for ANY purpose.

Edit : Once you have learned Starbases and EPP V of course.....

[This message has been edited by LCC (edited 13 June 2001).]

quote:

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Originally posted by rdouglass:
I thought that was taken out????? What Version are you running???

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V1.35 with TDM-Modpack - one is fine, I just checked. But if you try to add more it says you can only have one. That's fine with me since one is all I need. Warps and crosses a system in three game turns. It probably takes longer than three turns to consolidate a newly conquered system. Once you have warped through, you can launch your fighters on the strategic map and have them rejoin you when you are ready to warp to the next system down the road. Mobile bases HAH!

Edit : If you replace all the fighter bays by cargo on the design for a third base then your cargo is 21750 holding 870 spare fighters. Costs 43050 0 4640 versus 661200 0 6090 for the rocket pod equipped fighters. In other words the fighters cost 15 times the cargo base cost. Build LOTS of space yard space stations to build fighters. To build 870 fighters in 20 turns you need 22 yards for another 200200 22000 33000 initial investment. If you start building the bases on the turn all your yard stations are built, then the fighters will be ready by the time the bases are built. Of course if you have plenty of idle colonies you could have them build fighters instead of using stations - they do not even need a yard....

[This message has been edited by LCC (edited 13 June 2001).]

[Nitram Draw]

Sounds like a bug but could be a neat feature! A mobile defense unit.

quote:

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Originally posted by Nitram Draw:
Sounds like a bug but could be a neat feature! A mobile defense unit.

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NOT A BUG! It is just a big (2500 vs 1500)slow (0+5 vs 8+5) baseship. At least I hope MM sees it that way....

Edit : Arrgh! I just thought, with no engines would you be unable to WARP ? A fatal flaw in the plan if so...



[This message has been edited by LCC (edited 13 June 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

quote:

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NOT A BUG! It is just a big (2500 vs 1500)slow (0+5 vs 8+5) baseship. At least I hope MM sees it that way...

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Definitely a bug.
Just goto Shipsizes.txt, and change "base" to "ship", and make them ten engines per move. Instant mobile base mod.
Plus, you can force players to transport supplies to their bases, or just limit the amount of suppies from "unlimited" to whatever amount you give the hull.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 13 June 2001).]

[Nitram Draw]

I kind of like the idea of a mobile base that can't leave a system. It can't attack unless it carries fighters and might provide a little more variety.

It would be a really good idea to repair the glowing wreckage of warp point battle in one turn. For this a repair base would be very nice. Here is the design I plan to use - number of the component to include, name, size, damage, cost in minerals/ organics/ radioactives, then total size/ damage/ costs.

1 - Starbase hull when selected 2500/0/0
1 - Master Computer III 20/20 4000/1000/1000 same
1 - ECM III 10/10 400/0/0 same
1 - Scattering Armor III 50/150 500/0/100 same
6 - Stealth Armor III 30/100 700/0/200 - 180/600 4200/0/1200
8 - Phased Shield Generator V 40/40 800/0/0 - 320/320 6400/0/0
9 - Shield Regenerator IV (not V) 20/20 850/0/260 180/180 7650/0/2340
The same as the fighter base except no fighter bays and more cargo bays.
Total non repair 760/1280 25650/1000/4640
1 - Space Yard III 400/200 4000/0/500 same
8 - Repair Bay III 150/150 300/0/10 1200/1200 2400/0/80
7 - Cargo Bay III 20/20 200/0/0 140/140 1400/0/0
Total repair components 1740/1540 7800/0/580 repairs 8+64 and 1750 cargo
Grand total 42 components at 2500/2820 33450/1000/5220
Ratio nonrepair to repair 0.43/0.83 - 3.2/all/8.0
With a yard on, you can build more bases. The cargo bays are useful filler.
Shields are 3000 and regenerate 180 per combat turn.
IMPORTANT - against the AI, do NOT put a single weapon on this base (or the fighter base either). If you omit weapons, then the attacking fleet will break its teeth on the fighters and the ripper beam bases first until they have no weapons. Of course if you were playing a human, his first priority would probably be to blow your repair base to rubble.....

I just checked with a high tech game. You can put an EPP on the base. You can pop it. But they took away all the buttons such as drop cargo remotely that were allowing bases to move. So Carriers DO make sense for invading enemy systems where you have no colony, but NOT for colony or warp point defense....
If you have plenty of units in space slots, you do not need bases, but I have 27 warp points in my home space boundaries. With 5000/27 = 185 slots minus mines there are not enough to keep significant numbers of fighters on the map.

[Nitram Draw]

Put a Sat with a high level sensor on the other side of the WP. Keep your fighters on the planets until you see someone coming then launch them.
Also, later in the game when the AI has a lot of minesweepers you may find that mines lose their effectiveness, you can replace the mines with fighters.

[ZeroAdunn]

What's the deal with fighters being luanched with no movement? That really kills the idea of using fighters for system wide defense, they should launch with movement equall to the object that launched them, or in the case of a base or planet, full movement.