New OOB for Finland... (OBSOLETE THREAD)

[pdoktar]

Finally I got the opportunity to check your oob. It is good.

However I found some interesting figures.

Leo 2A4 frontal armor is corrected. However the side armors seem still old.

FIN hull side steel 9 HEAT 37
GER(91-96) steel 13 HEAT 33

I assume that finns have bought the upgraded "schurzen" Leo2A4s, as fielded by the bundeswehr.

Leo 2A4M concept seems to have only the turret uparmoring package. However this still differs from 2A5 turret scheme.

FIN turret side steel 20 HEAT 50, turret rear 10 and 25
GER turret side steel 30 HEAT 50, turret rear 15 and 30

Probably the finns will eventually upgrade to Leo 2A5 standard, so the concept tank is very good to include.

120mm L44 WG87 and 120mm L44 Fi07 accuracies are still 11, that should be corrected to the new standard of 14. (See main gun acc. thread and ver2.51 US oob)

Another issue (been here before) generic Sniper rifle accuracy is 30. This means that a basic to hit is 50% at 1500meters. Maybe acc should be 15, so base 50% is achieved at 750meters, as some oobs suggest. Heavy Snipers could have the acc. 30.

And I personally have general suspicions about BM II Autocannons capability to penetrate 16cm of rolled homogenous armor. As much as a WW2 17pdr would. Seems unbelievable for a 30mm weapon, whatever magic bullets one could use.

[Zipuli]

@pdoktar

I'm not quite sure about what skirts the German OOB has, because there are 2 different kinds used. But anyway, it seems a little weak! Maybe I look into this later when I have time! At Leo 2A4M, I think upgrade is possible if money is given (which I highly doubt!) and my intention was to give it the front&side turret wedged armour upgrade seen on 2A5, so maybe I made a little mistake with the armour ratings... I'll see to it later!

The accuracies 11 thing is new to me, let's see if it is fixed in 3.0, because many OOBs seem to have acc 11, not 14?!? Same with sniper accuracy, let's see what happens in 3.0...

BM2 with sabot ammo is a real killer (the MP ammo is bad), but as I compared it with the Swedish 40mm I think both are a bit overpowered! Their penetration should be quite close - this is why Finland bought the 30mm, not the 40mm. But anyway, even the practice ammunition (sabot) for the 30mm cannon WILL penetrate BMP-2s front armour easily

@thexder

Yes the spec ops are there only to exist... maybe in some scenarios, who knows! I don't use them either

The FO thing is a bit problematic, because FOs are usually integrated in the platoon level, which means that it's normal to have FO sec in a platoon (of any kind). I gave the 05 units an FO platoon if someone likes to delete it in the buy list, but didn't do it for the naval units... Let's see later, if I change this. Anyway, the FOs are there because they really are there! Actually this OOB has quite a small amount of FO teams in formations, as most platoon size "special" (ATGM, Recce etc.) formations have FOs too. I left them out, but the player can buy them individually!

Zip

[Warhero]

Zipuli, why you didn't added Hornets into this year (2006) too? Am I understood something wrong? I mean that if I want to use aircraft, I must choose only Hawk fighters? You say "Now the Hornets perform only anti-fighter-duties". Ok, I understand it but why they are still not available in your OOB at this moment too (I just checked this)... Is it really so that Finnish airforce's main fighter is still Hawk, not Hornet???

Anyway, your OOB is otherwise very good done!

Warhero

[Thexder]

Warhero said:
Zipuli, why you didn't added Hornets into this year (2006) too? Am I understood something wrong? I mean that if I want to use aircraft, I must choose only Hawk fighters? You say "Now the Hornets perform only anti-fighter-duties". Ok, I understand it but why they are still not available in your OOB at this moment too (I just checked this)... Is it really so that Finnish airforce's main fighter is still Hawk, not Hornet???

Warhero

If I've understood correctly, the Hornets don't have any weapons with which to shoot the ground targets. Like Zipuli said, they are only used to fight the enemy air forces, not ground objectives. And the game, of course, doesn't simulate the dog fights high above the infantry. If I remember correctly, there has been some talk of purchasing air-to-ground weapons to the Hornets as well. But it hasn't got approval yet (I'm not sure whether this is because political or fiscal reasons - or both).

Cheers,
Jukka

[Zipuli]

Yes, as Thexder says Finland has no A-G weapons for Hornets, nor A-G training for Hornet pilots... Only a few Hawks are used for war-time dutied anymore, and I am quite confident that they wouldn't attack ground targets either, but I gave them rockets for I've seen some photos of Finn Hawks with rocket pods under wings... Not sure if they were only for tests or..???

The reason Finnish Hornets are called F-18, not F/A-18 is that they were bought only for air-supremacy (sort of ) duties and all air-to-ground stuff was left out. BUT now that the politicians decided to remove AP (anti-personel) land mines from use before 2016 something was needed to replace them. How would you replace AP land mines? Finland's decision was to buy MLRS rocket launchers and later to arm some of the Hornets with "glide-bombs" (sort of "smart" cruise-missile-meets-iron-bomb-thing).

I'm not into politics, but it does sound a bit weird, doesn't it?

Zip

[pdoktar]

Politicians decide, everybody else whines.. Knowing that the Hornet deal became quite expensive it can be said that Buying the whole package at the first time might´ve been somewhat cost-efficient.

Interesting enough, finns decided against SP-artillery, but are now buying MLRS, knowing the quality of Tampella and Vammas´ guns, it is unbelivable that their products couldn´t be integrated to, say, AS90.

And now they´re buying MLR$...

[pdoktar]

30x173 Mk268 APFSDS ~64mm at 1000meters
30x173 Oerlikon FAPDS ~38mm at 1000meters
30x173 PGU-14 ~80mm at 1000meters

Check out tanknet armor scientific forum, topic some autocannon penetration numbers. There´s a lot of other stuff too for the interested one in various topics.

[Warhero]

Thanks about make it clear Zipuli. It's bit weird that Finland still have not "proper" air support for ground forces... Maybe after joining NATO in future?

[Thexder]

Warhero said:
Thanks about make it clear Zipuli. It's bit weird that Finland still have not "proper" air support for ground forces... Maybe after joining NATO in future?

I can't brag about knowing that much about Finnish army (served 4½ out of 6 months in MP company and hvy mortar company before changing to civil service) but I think it's logical in some way. One has to bear in mind that Finland only about 60 (Zipuli might know the exact number) Hornets againts hundrets of fighters our "most probable" enemy has. So in many ways it would be counterproductive to use this valuable asset for ground targets as Finland has - proportionally - stronger ground forces than air forces.

This is also linked to the failed attempt from military to acquire gunships. Maybe they thought that they would first take care of the air defense and then buy gunships to strenghten the defense against ground targets (ah, it would've been neat to use Apache's while playing with Finland). But all this is just my own speculation. I know there's many Finns in this forum that knows better.

As for NATO, I don't see Finland joining any time soon, at least not before 2010. But the truth is that the Finnish army is already compatible with NATO-standarts and when I was there many officers were certain that Finland would join. Well, that was four years ago and now we re-elected a president who is very much against NATO and the public is against joining with about 60% opposing and 25% for it.

Cheers,
Jukka

[Zipuli]

I've made some small changes to the OOB and will post it here next weekend. Changes are:

-Leo 2A4 hull armour values same as WG Leo2 and turret front received extra points against HEAT (only a few) due to the boxes Finns use in the front turret (Germans don't use)
-Leo 2A4M armour values changed to Leo 2A5 standards
-The 120 L44 Fi07 gun changed to WG96, as the Fi gun had sabot pen of 87, which is supposed to present DM53, but the ammo Finns buy (2007) is the DM33A2 (and maybe DM43). They have penetration of 68 in the game

Finns will propably not buy the DM53 round at all, because of the expences (parts in the gun need to be upgraded and the shot wears down the gun very fast compared to DM33 and 43).

Finnish air forces are only for fighting air threats (at the moment) and it has been that way after WW2.. With 64 hornets it's most likely that during chrisis they have other stuff to do than fly low to the enemy AA to fire off few rockets and drop some bombs

MLRS was quite cheap to Finns as the system was bought used from Holland (22 launcher vehicles ~40 million euros).

When testing the SPA the army of course wanted to buy them, but no money-no funny. The system (if bought new as the plan was) would have been really heavy moneywise, so the 155mm K98 was bought instead. Of course Finns still have a number of 2S1s and 2S5s, but the new SPA was to be used with the Brig 05s, the old russian ones are used with the armoured brigs and the new mech battlegroups(?). At least the AMOS could be bought!

Someone may think after reading these posts that FDF has always moneyproblems... well, it is that way! Compromises must be made.

But anyway, till next weekend!

Zip