Pricing of Mages ... is it balanced?

Cohen · #1 August 5th, 2004, 02:29 AM

I've compared some prices of the mages ...

First of all I noticed there're a too high variable according to the stat of the piece, instead of the lvls of Magic.

I believe this is wrong! There're mages that have 2-3 hit points more than other mages (like Abysya compared with every human mage) ... and this increases the cost of a lot of gold!

Meanwhile the *battle-mages* (Vantype Leaders, Thuata-type, or Jotunians who've a lot of hit points), I see some mages with like 8 hit points, or such, 8 strenght ... usually a stat totally irrilevant since one arrow bolt, or 1 generic hit will kill every low protection mage, not depending if having 10 or 12 or 8 hit points.

So on ... think like an Abysyan Warlock Acolite (3 lvl mage, 2 blood, 1 astral) costs 150 gold.
For the same price Pythium gets an holy (halved unkeep), 4 lvl mage (2 astral, 1 water, 1 air) and a lvl 3 priest!

Think on Caelum, a non capitol only mage with 3 Air, 1 water, 1 random ... for 180 gold!

I believe base mage stat should count far less in pricing the mage, and magic paths should do the big job, with special skills (fire immune, heat aura, cold immune, holy and such).

Norfleet · #2 August 5th, 2004, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cohen:
So on ... think like an Abysyan Warlock Acolite (3 lvl mage, 2 blood, 1 astral) costs 150 gold.
For the same price Pythium gets an holy (halved unkeep), 4 lvl mage (2 astral, 1 water, 1 air) and a lvl 3 priest!

Boo frickety hoo. Abysians are expensive, by nature: They're slightly tougher than your average bear, and they're also fireproof. This fireproofness synergizes well with their national attributes. I think you're just sore you can't afford enough mages with your precious Abysia.

Quote:

Think on Caelum, a non capitol only mage with 3 Air, 1 water, 1 random ... for 180 gold!

Actually, it's A3W2?, but Caelum's entire selling point is its cheap mages. Compare also to Arco Mystics, also $180, and you get S2???, with the ?'s restricted to elementals for better odds of getting a mage strong in a specific path.

[ August 05, 2004, 02:50: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Pickles · #3 August 5th, 2004, 11:05 AM

Abysian warlocks are the cheapest B2 mages there are*. I would love to spend 150 for them with Jotun instead of 250 for a Skratti (SP)

Pickles

*Goetic masters are cheaper after 40 turns &
Amethyst?(the blood ones) amazons may be cheaper too.

Norfleet · #4 August 5th, 2004, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pickles:
*Goetic masters are cheaper after 40 turns &
Amethyst?(the blood ones) amazons may be cheaper too.

Goetic Masters can be considered to have a hidden cost of 2-3x what their actual list price is, due to the fact that mandatory turmoil will cause you to have about 1/2 to 1/3 of the income of a normal player. It does seem that blood mages have an unusual premium associated with their cost in many cases, though, and "pure" blood magic is generally not very impressive.

Cohen · #5 August 5th, 2004, 12:04 PM

Well Goetik Master have 2B, 2F and 1?, + Holy Magic 2, and are sacred.
So I believe for 190 they're damn good.

True you've to take mandatory Turmoil 1 and Heat 1, that reduces a lot your income to have Goetik Master.

However I should underline that Warlock Apprentices if used to blood hunt will cripple your research, since you can only build blood huntes and good researchers in capitol.

Sheap · #6 August 5th, 2004, 12:06 PM

Quote:

due to the fact that mandatory turmoil will cause you to have about 1/2 to 1/3 of the income of a normal player.

How come you keep saying this? Turmoil-1 earns 75% as much as Order-3, and that's not even considering the points you save (which could be used to buy Production or Growth to reduce the shortfall). If you've taken Sloth or Death (as I know you are fond of Sloth) then the difference is even less than that.

Yes, the occasional natural disaster will reduce your income, but it will not cut it in half, especially if you use the points you saved from not taking Order to buy Luck.

johan osterman · #7 August 5th, 2004, 02:18 PM

Cohen: The mages are not intended to be equally cost effective for all nations. Caelum have cheaper powefull than any other nations not because they have two hitpoints less but because cheap mages is intended as a feature of the magocracy Caelum. Other mage prices vary similarily for similar reasons. The different nations are not intended to pay the same cost for the same punch, it is one of the ways in which the nations are differentiated, both thematically and gameplay wise.

Edit: rereading the orignal post drunk I see it is barely comprehensible, I have tried to correct the grammar.

[ August 05, 2004, 22:07: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Pickles · #8 August 5th, 2004, 02:22 PM

1/2 to 1/3 sounds possible for early game after upkeep as say upkeep is 40% gross income then if your gross income goes down 20%, your net icome goes down 1/3
If gross drops 40%, net drops by 2/3 etc

I forgot warlocks were capital - only you really need some indeps to help out - but who doesn't?
& it's not like they are rare.

[ August 05, 2004, 17:47: Message edited by: Pickles ]

Cohen · #9 August 5th, 2004, 04:38 PM

That's because Caelum is one of the best nations!

Inigo Montoya · #10 August 5th, 2004, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by johan osterman:
Cohen: The mages are not intended to be equally cost effective for all nations. Caelum for have cheaper powefull than any other nations not because they have to hitpoints less but because cheap mages is intended as a feature of the magocracy Caelum. Other mage prices vary similarily for similar reasons. The different nations are not intended to pay the same cost for the same punch, it is one of the ways in which the nations are differentiated, both thematically and gameplay wise.

Exactly! I think we should all be very wary of trying to homogenize this outstanding game. If we "balance" every nation's mages against every other nation we will end up with every nation playing the same and feeling the same. We'll have every nation with 10 hp mages and the same magic paths for the same cost. It's the only way to "balance" it. Screw balancing mages if that's the price we'd have to pay for it! I'd rather have one nation's mages being more powerful for the cost. On the other hand, balancing nation to nation is a worthwile endeavor so everyone has an equal chance of winning. Balancing mage to mage or commander to commander or archer to archer, etc just ends up with every nation playing exactly like every other. No more of these kinds of unit comparisons please, Cohen. Focus your efforts instead on comparing nations. It's a lot harder to do because it requires a greater synthesis of information, but it has more value.