What am I supposed to do with Shamen?

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by djtool:
I've used them for making ivy crowns and pumping out vine men.

This is actually not a bad use for them, either, considering the poison immunity of the Vine Men (they ARE poison immune, right?)

Regarding the Keeper of the Tombs, however, I personally prefer the Keeper over the Shaman. While the Shaman may be the more useful mage outside of combat, the Keeper is a Holy-2 Mage, and I don't want to count the number of times I try to build Temples with Shamen.

Really, though, the Shaman IMO is the backbone of C'tis's research. A magic scale makes sense with C'tis anyway (fatigue help with Raise Dead and the like is really good for the Sauromancers).

One final way to get Shamen to forge +path items is to cast Forge, which requires some earth gems and an Earth pretender. Earth is far better on a survivability front than Astral, and lends itself well to a Shaman-rush Communion.

The other nice use for the Shaman is to Forge the basic nature items like Wineskins that you probably don't want your Sauromancers to be busy with.

[Chazar]

I'd agree that he looks like a sensible researcher: 3,6 Gold Upkeep per turn for 4 RP does make some sense indeed...

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
So what do YOU use him for? (Especially tips on early- mid game appreciated here)?

Researchers - assuming a magic scale

Site searchers - Arcane probing, Haruspex with a Mace

Curse - the bane of most SCs

Behemoth enhancers - etherealize them first, can also cast Luck on them, and keep them healthy with Healing Light

Communion - using shamen as both slaves and masters, gives access to many useful level 3+ astral and nature spells (see LIZARDS GONE WILD in Alex's thread)

Protection vs hostile rituals like Mind Hunt or scrying spells

Forging - many useful items available at astral-1 & nature 1-2 (again, the Mace)

Cheap enough to be worth risking even if the opposition can field better (but more expensive) mind duellists - eg, vs Mystics, out of 36 tries you win 10, draw 5 , and lose 21. Weighted results: (15 * 180 - 26 * 110) / 36 = 4.44 gold - that's your expected relative loss to Arco in mage value, so it's insignificant enough to take the risk. Don't forget to use Light of the Northern Stars in these situations though.

That's all I can think of just now, but I'm sure I'm missing lots of other things shamen are good for.

[djtool]

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:
Really, though, the Shaman IMO is the backbone of C'tis's research.

I wouldn't like to have to spend 110gp for 4 res a turn...yuk

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by djtool:
I wouldn't like to have to spend 110gp for 4 res a turn...yuk

The initial cost is not particularly important to a sacred mage, which the Shaman is. It is the most cost effective researcher that C'Tis has. It also ranks just behind the Vaetti hag at 11th place in long term efficiency.

[ June 21, 2004, 14:38: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:

quote:

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Originally posted by djtool:
I've used them for making ivy crowns and pumping out vine men.

This is actually not a bad use for them, either, considering the poison immunity of the Vine Men (they ARE poison immune, right?)

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Yep. And a mixed formation of vine men, manikins and longdead/soulless/corpse men is less vulnerable to banishment - some of the banishment is wasted on the vine men. The whole mess is still immune to poison and unroutable, so back them up with some poison slingers and have fun.

However in order to actually mix them in formation you need a commander with some decent normal and undead leadership, which usually means a Sauromancer with sceptre of authority for me. You can fake it by putting two squads in the same place in setup, but they may not mix as evenly so banish will still be able to target concentrations of undead.

Regarding the Keeper of the Tombs, however, I personally prefer the Keeper over the Shaman. While the Shaman may be the more useful mage outside of combat, the Keeper is a Holy-2 Mage, and I don't want to count the number of times I try to build Temples with Shamen.

Building temples is a Hierodule's job. What does the Keeper do that the red Sauromancer doesn't do better? (You can ask that kind of question about a lot of cheap national mages - but the Shaman has an answer.) The Shaman gives C'tis some flexibility - astral is a path that they don't otherwise have (except through randoms - and a Sauromancer with his random in astral should be leading a communion of shaman if he appears on the battlefield at all) and is useful even at low levels.

Please change the Keeper to 1 Fire, 1 Death, 1 Astral. Appropriate and useful (although still probably not as useful as the Shaman - no access to Relief or healing spells, can't forge supply items; but still usable as a communion slave, researcher, forger or site scryer).

Really, though, the Shaman IMO is the backbone of C'tis's research. A magic scale makes sense with C'tis anyway (fatigue help with Raise Dead and the like is really good for the Sauromancers).

One final way to get Shamen to forge +path items is to cast Forge, which requires some earth gems and an Earth pretender. Earth is far better on a survivability front than Astral, and lends itself well to a Shaman-rush Communion.

The other nice use for the Shaman is to Forge the basic nature items like Wineskins that you probably don't want your Sauromancers to be busy with.

The Shaman also provide some supplies just by being there. Minor but handy.

Really, I think their roles as relief casters and supply providers (both for their own nature magic and supply items they forge) are easy to underestimate. Although you could argue Desert Tombs needs them less, they don't have less need for Arcane Probing, communion slaves and cheap sacred researchers. If the Keeper's not going to be sacred he could at least be a point better researcher than the Shaman.

[tinkthank]

Thanks for all of this.

A follow-up question:

I also got excited about poison slingers and undead synergizing well, but I just fail to be able to get my slingers to work. I fail miserably in every single setup I have tried.
In fact, I get the majority of them killed no matter what, unless I have vastly superior forces, in which case I win (or would win) without them.

It seems that the poison slingers also have a unoverridable urge to run out and attack enemies with their daggers -- at times, at least it seems so to me, when they must have at least 1 shot left (that is, before battle round 7). Why is this?

Where do you put them on the battlefield that they can hit enemies and not kill themselves?

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
Building temples is a Hierodule's job. What does the Keeper do that the red Sauromancer doesn't do better? (You can ask that kind of question about a lot of cheap national mages - but the Shaman has an answer.)

Bless, Preach, and Build Temples. For an answer that is somewhat conducive to discussion, however, I would use the Keepers to summon your Banefire Archers. All they need is a single +Death item (which your Sauromancers are guaranteed able to make). That's a 110g sacred mage (I can only believe the lack of sacred is an oversight) doing a job that would otherwise need a 180g non-sacred mage.

Also, if I have a Keeper building my temples, I don't have to build a Hierodule to build my Temples, since I'm already going to have Keepers for Research purposes anyway.

Please change the Keeper to 1 Fire, 1 Death, 1 Astral. Appropriate and useful (although still probably not as useful as the Shaman - no access to Relief or healing spells, can't forge supply items; but still usable as a communion slave, researcher, forger or site scryer).

I think that would be a singularly bad idea. They already have easy access to Banefire, do you really want them to have Astral Fires as well? And that's not counting Nether Darts, either...

This also ignores the fact that you are advocating to give C'tis a researcher in the top 10 in the game and you give Desert Tombs access to Astral items that really don't belong there.

I mean, how hard is it to find Shamen in independent provinces, anyway?

Although you could argue Desert Tombs needs them less, they don't have less need for Arcane Probing, communion slaves and cheap sacred researchers. If the Keeper's not going to be sacred he could at least be a point better researcher than the Shaman.

Actually, I would argue that yes, indeed, Desert Tombs has less need of communion slaves and Astral magic, due to an unlimited supply of undead troops. There is only _one_ nation in the game that gets Astral Magic, Death Magic, AND Unholy priests, and that's BE Ermor, and it pays a stiff penalty for it.

I really think that the Keeper's nonsacredness is an anomaly. I mean, can anyone name another priest that isn't sacred?

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
Building temples is a Hierodule's job. What does the Keeper do that the red Sauromancer doesn't do better?

Cast fire spells with a skull of fire and phoenix power? Also site searching with the same items. Not as generally useful as the Shaman perhaps.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Byler:
Building temples is a Hierodule's job. What does the Keeper do that the red Sauromancer doesn't do better?

Cast fire spells with a skull of fire and phoenix power? Also site searching with the same items. Not as generally useful as the Shaman perhaps.

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Giving them a Skull Staff and having them summon Banefire archers in droves is much more fun!