Updated Manual?

[Tollund]

Of the 70 games currently running on Llamaserver, at least 47 are using a version of the conceptual balance mod. Of the six games starting on Llamaserver, 4 are using CBM, one is mostly modded nations, and one is vanilla. There's a reason that the CBM is as popular as it is, and that is because the balance in the vanilla game is atrociously bad. This doesn't make vanilla a bad game, but it does mean that the CBM version is a better game than vanilla.

The only reason I can see for why people "badmouth" the vanilla game in many threads is because Gandalf constantly shows up and always tells people that they shouldn't be playing a modded game. It gets a little annoying after the dozenth time you read it.

[Gandalf Parker]

I NEVER badmouth CBm! EVER!
I was a strong proponent of it from the start and took part in many of the conversations at its inception. I still think its one of the best mods we have going. For game balance in MP its definetly the winner hands-down.

I only dive in when someone tries to give the impression that all of the games use it. That seems to be an effort to create a fact by convincing everyone its true ahead of time. Ive seen many games converted to cbm games because the original poster was convinced that it was expected. QM doesnt push it that way anymore than I would push SingleAge as only way to play Dom3.

And I dont remember ever pushing a vanilla non-modded game either. If anything quite the opposite. I would accept that I too often mention rpg mods over balance mods but thats just my preference for the style of game.

[Tollund]

Sure you do. Nearly everytime somebody suggests that it is the standard mod you supply a PR blurb about how people should play the base game first before they use a mod that actually makes the AI a better player by making the obvious decisions less obvious.

[Squirrelloid]

That's because every game *should* use it.

I've only noted two games started in the last 6 months (since i started playing) that *weren't* using a CBM version, unless NvV3 wasn't using CBM, in which case that number is actually 3, but I can't remember.

If virtually all MP games use CBM, that's a strong argument for all mods to be CBM compatible, and all SP games to use CBM if you intend to ever play MP. No point learning non-CBM and getting surprised by CBM when you start playing MP. Basically, you're training yourself how to ride the bicycle wrong if you use non-CBM for SP and you intend to start playing MP.

[Sombre]

CBMs changes actually are documented very clearly. The dm is a text file and it's easy to read - even easier to look up something specific using a simple find. There are no questions about its accuracy because you're looking at the mod itself.

Then there are resources like Cleveland's CBM forging doodad. Not sure exactly what else people actually want in terms of documentation. Just griping over nothing maybe?

[Gandalf Parker]

CBM is above average as mods go for self-documentation. It has many comments thru the file. I count over 1300 lines of comments.

[Illuminated One]

Originally Posted by Sombre

CBMs changes actually are documented very clearly. The dm is a text file and it's easy to read - even easier to look up something specific using a simple find. There are no questions about its accuracy because you're looking at the mod itself.

Then there are resources like Cleveland's CBM forging doodad.

That's true to a point.
However there's some things in it that are not straightforward (#effect 10021, #spec 4194304
, #pathlevel 1 1 ?) if you don't actually mod.
And now try to find out what has changed about all air summons.
I'm not "griping" (whatever that means), I'm saying it would be nice.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

That's because every game *should* use it.

I've only noted two games started in the last 6 months (since i started playing) that *weren't* using a CBM version, unless NvV3 wasn't using CBM, in which case that number is actually 3, but I can't remember.

If virtually all MP games use CBM, that's a strong argument for all mods to be CBM compatible, and all SP games to use CBM if you intend to ever play MP. No point learning non-CBM and getting surprised by CBM when you start playing MP. Basically, you're training yourself how to ride the bicycle wrong if you use non-CBM for SP and you intend to start playing MP.

Yeah, I believe that's the intention behind it. Still I disagree.
There won't be the point where we run out of CBM games, so whenever you want to play CBM you can do so.
Going from vanilla to CBM or vice versa doesn't need "relearning" of the game mechanics only checking which of the things are better or worse now.
It's a bit like saying that there should be only one car type since then noone ever has to relearn. If you wanted to have a standard then it would have to be vanilla in any case (see, that's the thing about one car countries, you only get the basic version) - since there is less space for technical issues than a modded game, and since you'd have to "relearn" every time a new CBM comes out. Not that we need any standard imo.

[Squirrelloid]

So, for example, remembering what constr level and path levels all the forgings require is something that is inconvenient to look up. Its also relatively stable across CBM versions (a few change, but those are generally noted on the first post releasing the new version). Since research strategy and forging strategy are important elements of playing the game, going from normal to CBM could really screw you up and you wouldn't even know until you completed the necessary research (or what you thought was the necessary research!). Further, you wouldn't necessarily think to check beforehand for many items.

The most obvious change is gem gens, probably the single most important change for game balance CBM has made, and one where if you plan your strategy around them based on SP experience, and didn't think to check if they were moved in CBM, your entire plan would fall apart. But there are numerous others where knowing something was easier or harder to get would radically change your planning and possibly even pretender design.

At least Cleveland has provided a forging guide that includes Vanilla and CBM, so its at least plausible to check forging. But heaven help you if the *function* of an item changed, as I can't think of a single good way to check that quickly.

If the game had an excellent in-game manual (Civilopedia style) and the developers had made the mechanics more transparent (don't get me started on how much existing spell descriptions annoy me), then I'd say that switching back and forth is sufficiently easy to not be an issue. But many things are hard to reference, and oftentimes its not clear from a description what the heck something actually does. So the only way to know what 50% (or more) of the spell list and a large variety of items do is to try them out - meaning changing the rules set you're using with any frequency is rather obnoxious.

Now, given that the vanilla game is horribly balanced (gem gens for starters, but there are also issues with scales, unit pricing, pretender chassis costs, spell research, gem, and path requirements, etc...), and CBM fixes many of these issues, and is also played vastly more often in MP situations, it would seem to be the best available 'standard' to learn and play under.

(Further, sure there are new versions of CBM, but the base game at least used to get patched regularly, and made sometimes major changes to things like dominion powers for Rlyeh/Ermor, so certainly new versions is not an issue only with CBM. One should argue that CBM's continuing to get updated is an advantage).

When i get a new car, it comes with a manual that actually explains what everything does and tells me the technical specs. If I really care, there are experts who can explain what all the technical specs mean, how exactly the specific engine/fuel injector/whatever works. This makes it a lot easier to switch cars, because it has adequate documentation for *everything*. Also, if the car manual is actively wrong, it gets recalled and I get a new one. The game manual is actively wrong on every remotely technical explanation of mechanics.

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

At least Cleveland has provided a forging guide that includes Vanilla and CBM, so its at least plausible to check forging. But heaven help you if the *function* of an item changed, as I can't think of a single good way to check that quickly.

What do you mean by the function of an item? We can only mod the weapon and armour granted by an item. You don't need heaven's help to find out about that, you look in the dm or the accompanying txt file.

(don't get me started on how much existing spell descriptions annoy me)

There was a mod which changed spell descriptions into technical descriptions. It might be out of date now but you can probably find it by searching.

So the only way to know what 50% (or more) of the spell list and a large variety of items do is to try them out - meaning changing the rules set you're using with any frequency is rather obnoxious.

CBM mostly changes variables which are transparent in spells, units etc. I'd say at least 95% of the changes are things like damage, range, gemcost, visible stats and abilities etc. Things you can see by clicking for more info, not things that need testing or hunting through the .dm file or accompanying txt.

That's true to a point.
However there's some things in it that are not straightforward (#effect 10021, #spec 4194304
, #pathlevel 1 1 ?) if you don't actually mod.
And now try to find out what has changed about all air summons.
I'm not "griping" (whatever that means), I'm saying it would be nice.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/griping

If you don't know what it means, how can you say you aren't doing it?

You may have noticed that in addition to the dm, there is a parallel .txt file which lists the changes made in plain english rather than modspeak. Not that 'modspeak' is hard to understand, since it only has a handful of terms that aren't obvious and for those you have modding documentation, which is near enough 100%

[Omnirizon]

Originally Posted by Sombre

You may have noticed that in addition to the dm, there is a parallel .txt file which lists the changes made in plain english rather than modspeak. Not that 'modspeak' is hard to understand, since it only has a handful of terms that aren't obvious and for those you have modding documentation, which is near enough 100%

modspeak actually sounds a lot like this: Intermission in the Third Dimension
coincidentally: most conversations on IRC sound a lot like this too.