Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed? - Page 39

calmon · #**381** April 25th, 2007, 10:36 AM

Let us wait for the first version of the glamour and helheim changes before continue the discussion here.

Kristoffer wrote in the Tir na n'Og Thread:

Quote:

Kristoffer O said:
Changes to helheim are on the agenda. Some have been implemented. We're experimenting with glamour right now. Quite important as there is about to be another glamour nation.

Gandalf Parker · #**382** April 25th, 2007, 12:03 PM

Thank you. I was trying to remember if I had seen anything posted on that outside of the beta-test forum.

Tuidjy · #**383** April 25th, 2007, 02:19 PM

Guys... Once upon the time, in the days of Dominions II, I got into a heated
discussion with someone on the subject whether mainstream Ulm was weak. After
pointless arguments, we decided to duke it out on a map that would play to
Ulm's strengths, as he perceived them. After getting demolished in the one
setup that he was sure to win (against Pythium) he stopped objecting.

Why not do it again... those few who claim that Hellheim is not imbalanced will
be assigned nations and show the rest of us how one defeats a fire/water bless.

Despite being a Dominions III newbie, and having never played any -heims since
pretender changes allowed insane blesses, I am willing to take the -heim side.

Velusion · #**384** April 25th, 2007, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Tuidjy said:
Guys... Once upon the time, in the days of Dominions II, I got into a heated
discussion with someone on the subject whether mainstream Ulm was weak. After
pointless arguments, we decided to duke it out on a map that would play to
Ulm's strengths, as he perceived them. After getting demolished in the one
setup that he was sure to win (against Pythium) he stopped objecting.

Why not do it again... those few who claim that Hellheim is not imbalanced will
be assigned nations and show the rest of us how one defeats a fire/water bless.

Despite being a Dominions III newbie, and having never played any -heims since
pretender changes allowed insane blesses, I am willing to take the -heim side.

Good luck in finding an opponent. Most of the people that defend the heims "as is" don't play MP.

But I agree with Calmon - I'll wait to see the changes mentioned by the devs. I'm a bit skeptical, but I'll wait and see.

Edit: Actually if this test is ever done I'd prefer someone more experienced to play the heim nations. Everyone says that the dual-bless heim strategy is simple, but I'm not sure I completely buy that. A really good player intimately familiar with exploiting the heim double-bless avenue would be a better indicator of true uber-potential. Note that this rules me out

.

thejeff · #**385** April 25th, 2007, 02:50 PM

Even most of the defenders agree that they are very strong in a small map blitz game rush strategy. Which is what any reasonable one on one game is likely to be.

You could disprove some of the suggested counters, I suppose.

Velusion · #**386** April 25th, 2007, 03:35 PM

Quote:

thejeff said:
Even most of the defenders agree that they are very strong in a small map blitz game rush strategy. Which is what any reasonable one on one game is likely to be.

You could disprove some of the suggested counters, I suppose.

*nods* The most common defense is "they are weaker in larger/bigger games".

I'd contend that Helheim on a large map (say 30 provinces per player - much larger than the vast majority of MP games) would still crush another non-heim nation one-on-one.

The game only starts to balance out in the extreme late game when the amount of magic researched by all nations is very, very high. The amount of high level magic puts almost everyone that can compete (income/gems/research wise) on semi-equal footing. Even then, the heims really don't have a disadvantage going into the extreme late game, whereas they have a large advantage in the early/mid game.

HoneyBadger · #**387** April 25th, 2007, 03:41 PM

All I'm trying to say-and I didn't think it was very difficult to understand-is that you can't call a nation unbalanced purely on what's happening in an MP game. You have to look at the SP game, because it's the only way you're going to get anything approaching a pure result.

If you go by what a human player might do and might exploit, you're never going to get an accurate result, because every human player is going to be different.

Saying Hel and Van are unbalanced *just* because of what's happening in MP games, it's like calling chess unbalanced because Forrest Gump is playing chess against Bobby Fisher (or Bobby Fisher is playing ping-pong/table-tennis against Forrest Gump, for that matter). MP is a very good indicator of what *might* be unbalanced, but SP is where you can get hard facts, because you're only playing for or against yourself.

Now, I know and I admit that there are some things us clever humans can come up with that the computer never will, and those things can be exploited and make a seemingly weak nation a lot stronger, but why should intelligent, clever, unpredictible strategy be punished? that's why we're here!

What I'm trying to say is, if a nation is strong when the computer plays it, when you play it, when Forrest Gump and Bobby Fisher play it, when it's got a sprained ankle, a toothache, and a hangover, *then* it's a problem. A nation can be called unbalanced when it's *always* unbalanced. When it has an advantage in almost every situation, fair or unfair. Helheim and Vanheim do.

And it's not like I'm NOT saying that Hel and Van are unfairly favored-they are! I just think that removing things from a nation that a player might exploit, just so you can have more weak nations, is bad policy. Make the ones that are weak, stronger. Give them more exploitable qualities so they're more fun to play, rather than having us end up with yet another lame-duck nation.

Teraswaerto · #**388** April 25th, 2007, 04:03 PM

When you say "there are some things us clever humans can come up with that the computer never will" it completely misses the point: the AI doesn't really play Dominions in the same sense a human does at all. It has no magic strategy and no bless strategy, it doesn't build coherent armies but rather jumbles of whatever it happens to recruit, etc. Therefore how the AI does with a nation tells practically nothing about whether or not the nation is strong or weak.

If by SP you mean tests where create a game with 2 or more human players and you control both, that can give hard data on what counters are possible.

HoneyBadger · #**389** April 25th, 2007, 04:24 PM

That's what I'm talking about, tests, yes.

thejeff · #**390** April 25th, 2007, 04:27 PM

The problem is that the AI cannot play to Van/Helheim's strengths at all.

It probably won't have a F9/W9 bless. If it does it won't recruit enough sacred troops. If it does attack with sacreds it often won't bless them. It will not even try to use stealth attacks and raiding.

It's not that the AI won't use weird clever tricks that humans can, it's that it won't use the basic strengths of the nation.

Now if you're arguing that, even with the AIs limits, not using most of their strength, the heims are overpowered, then bringing that up adds to the argument.

Velusion:
I'd agree that even on a 60 province 2 player map, Helheim is likely to crush most nations. But that, though large for 2 players, is still early game. Few SCs or full battlefield magic by the end of it, would be my guess.
I'd bet on any of the good bless nations against any non-bless in that game. Some would be closer than others, but I'd also bet Neifelheim or Mictlan could give Helheim a run for it's money.