Golden Age Arcoscephale

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Blitz:
So does Pangaea: NA I suppose. Her level 1 nature magic isn't irrelevant, but it's certianly not on par with most nation's secondary mages... even if she is a more efficient researcher and comes with different magic than the mystic.

Well, you were the one who said that GE Arco has only one mage.

Using only the strongest mages available is a common mistake made by less experienced players.

You like insulting people, don't you, Blitz? If you check other threads (such as the Desert Tombs thread), you will see I am quite comfortable with using 'secondary' mages.

I'd be happy to thrash you with GE arco.

I'm sure you would be.

I've never said it was unplayable, merely weaker.

Why would YOU choose GE Arco over normal Arco then? If you believe as you imply elsewhere in this thread and others that GE Arco is weaker than normal Arco, why would you ever play it?

Obviously from the poll, I'm speaking with the majority here.

Poll results can be rigged with anyone with a modicum of intellect. As I don't ascribe stupidity to you, I see no reason why the results of that poll should receive undue attention. I'm fairly confident that the developers pay it little heed.

If you don't agree, that's fine... but it certianly isn't an indication of my inability to play the theme.

Then why bother bringing it up? If you can play and win with the theme, what's so wrong with it? If you don't _like_ playing it vis-a-vis other nations or themes, that's perfectly fine, but don't bring up a discussion about how it's weaker because you don't like the way it plays.

About the only thing I agree with in this entire thread is that the Wind Rider is (slightly) overpriced, and that's only because the Gryphon Rider of the Garnet Amazons costs the same and gives you a Gryphon when the Rider dies.

BTW, nice sidestep of the math.

[Blitz]

I wouldn't take popularity as some sort of truth. Especially considering that GE is relatively new

You are already on record that you feel the wind rider is overcosted. Have you changed that opinion?

quote:
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Using only the strongest mages available is a common mistake made by less experienced players.
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You like insulting people, don't you, Blitz? If you check other threads (such as the Desert Tombs thread), you will see I am quite comfortable with using 'secondary' mages.

I think inexperienced players tend to recruit the best possible unit, regardless of circumstances. It's certianly a habit I had to break fairly early on. I don't know if you are still in that stage or not, but your post seemed to imply it.

About the only thing I agree with in this entire thread is that the Wind Rider is (slightly) overpriced, and that's only because the Gryphon Rider of the Garnet Amazons costs the same and gives you a Gryphon when the Rider dies.

Great, let's improve the wind rider then shall we? I seem to recall that was what my mod did. Giving GE a well-costed large flier would most likely improve the theme quite a bit, and it's what I've advocated all along.

Why would YOU choose GE Arco over normal Arco then? If you believe as you imply elsewhere in this thread and others that GE Arco is weaker than normal Arco, why would you ever play it?

I like the GE concept. I think it's the best concept for a theme out there. I'd like to see it be strengthened so I could justify playing it more under competitive circumstances.

[ June 23, 2004, 23:22: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Originally posted by Blitz:
You are already on record that you feel the wind rider is overcosted. Have you changed that opinion?

On record? This isn't a courtroom ;P But I have always felt it that way, but does that make the theme weaker than base Arco? Perhaps. But what pricetag do you put on being able to heal those Wind Riders that do survive or that you equip with a heavy blessing?

I have had great successes with GE Arco. But all my successes have been with not using Wind Riders at all because my playstyle, while very centralized around mobility, does not play into the cost effectiveness of Wind Riders. So in effect boosting or making the Wind Riders more viable for me, would strengthen the entire theme, probably to the point that some might feel it is better than the Arco Base, which is exactly what a Theme is not intended to do.

[Scott Hebert]

I stated what I felt to be true.

If you had done any research, however, you would have seen that the statement did not apply to me, and thus had no place in the post except as an implied insult.

You implied you felt cheaper mages were only good for forging and communion slaves (and blood hunting I imagine).

If that's what you 'got out' of my statement, let me be clearer. The overwhelming use of cheaper mages is to be research or bloodhunt, especially in the early-game, because they are more efficient.

Great, let's improve the wind rider then shall we?

Read what I wrote again. I did not say 'underpowered'; I said 'overpriced'. That is, I think they should cost around 100g, because their kill rate is much higher than comparable units (like the Valkyrie). However, they don't compare well to Gryphon Riders, so they probably should fall somewhere between the two.

I seem to recall that was what my mod did. Giving GE a well-costed large flier would most likely improve the theme quite a bit, and it's what I've advocated all along.

I disagree with how you modified them. Awe is totally inappropriate for them, IMO. And I hope you gave the Crystal Amazon Pegasus Riders Awe, too, if your reasoning for the Awe is because of the Pegasi. I would never give a flying sacred unit Awe, personally.

Also, that was not the only change you made. The changes seemed geared towards making Golden Era Arco play more like base Arco, which doesn't seem what the developers wanted.

[Blitz]

I have had great successes with GE Arco. But all my successes have been with not using Wind Riders at all because my playstyle, while very centralized around mobility, does not play into the cost effectiveness of Wind Riders. So in effect boosting or making the Wind Riders more viable for me, would strengthen the entire theme, probably to the point that some might feel it is better than the Arco Base, which is exactly what a Theme is not intended to do.

I'd be interested to know if you've found some tactics with GE that I haven't. I generally relied on earth summons (and air queens), using my early research ability to get me there quickly. The construction earth buffs helped my cardaces quite a bit, and I added a few chariots and icarids to attack the flanks and rear. I think the early research boost can help offset the weaknesses of cardaces, hopefully long enough to get knights or other strong independants going.

While this strategy is somewhat succesful, I wish I could justify using wind riders more... as I see them as the signature unit of the theme. I think the devs may have overestimated the power of the rider and costed him unfairly.

Originally posted by Blitz:
I'd be interested to know if you've found some tactics with GE that I haven't. I generally relied on earth summons (and air queens), using my early research ability to get me there quickly. The construction earth buffs helped my cardaces quite a bit, and I added a few chariots and icarids to attack the flanks and rear. I think the early research boost can help offset the weaknesses of cardaces, hopefully long enough to get knights or other strong independants going.

Well it's a game by game basis which tactics I use. But In General?

• Heavy Combat Oriented Pretender viable both Early and Late Game (Think Natty, PoD, Phoenix, Daughter, Cyclops)
• Mass Engineers
• Early sacrifice of Expansion to get a Second Fortress up Immediately
• Midgame I rely on Golembatants until I get my Mystic Support Spells in Line
• Abuse of Communion at every concievable opportunity

With my strategy I don't have as many Provinces as I would with normal Arco, but I have the unsiegable fortresses pushing in while I fortify heavily with Mass Mystic and Gateway in heavy chariot armies with support that will even roll Devil armies with Golem and Mechanical Men support. The key is to get the right amount of research fast enough while not depleting your gem income too far. This is why it's key to use your early gem income to fuel search spells (I'm not talking Acashic here).

[Blitz]

The overwhelming use of cheaper mages is to be research or bloodhunt, especially in the early-game, because they are more efficient

You've stated this again, and rather than unintentionaly insult you again, I'll try to be clearer.

Many if not most nations have cheaper mages that are in many circumstances more cost effective at doing various things. You've correctly identified researching and forging, and I reminded you of blood hunting... but on the battlefield there are many reasons why a cheaper mage might be better. Taking again, the seithkona who can cast both healing light and nether darts... her fatigue will be higher from these spells, but obviously two seithkona can cast them twice as often at less than half the price. Other good examples of this are the Marignion witch hunter, the Plythium Therug, the Caelum Seraph, the Machaka sorceress, the mother of avalon, and others. Clearly there are many situations where spending double the gold on a mage to cast the same spells is not effective.

[Scott Hebert]

You've stated this again, and rather than unintentionaly insult you again, I'll try to be clearer.

That would be appreciated.

Many if not most nations have cheaper mages that are in many circumstances more cost effective at doing various things. You've correctly identified researching and forging, and I reminded you of blood hunting...

And I thank you for that reminder.

but on the battlefield there are many reasons why a cheaper mage might be better. Taking again, the seithkona who can cast both healing light and nether darts... her fatigue will be higher from these spells, but obviously two seithkona can cast them twice as often at less than half the price. Other good examples of this are the Marignion witch hunter, the Plythium Therug, the Caelum Seraph, the Machaka sorceress, the mother of avalon, and others. Clearly there are many situations where spending double the gold on a mage to cast the same spells is not effective.

Certainly, and I don't try to imply otherwise. However, I wasn't aware that the Evocation-7 necessary to cast Nether Darts qualified as 'especially early game'.

I simply don't see myself using, or hear of most others using, their cheap mages early in a combat role, or _any_ role other than researcher, bloodhunter, or (occasionally) cheap-item forger.

My point in all of this relative to GE Arco is that the Philosopher gives up the forging/battle roles that the Seithkona in order to give the same research at a cheaper price. 40g + 2.6667g per turn cheaper.

_Especially_ early-game, this difference is huge. Considering the other differences between GE Arco and Utgard Jotunheim, it should be much easier for Arco to afford the non-troop expenditures (forts/labs/temples/mercs) than Utgard Jotunheim, all other things being equal (and I'm not saying they are).

Just something to consider.

[Scott Hebert]

[quote]Originally posted by Zen:
Well it's a game by game basis which tactics I use. But In General?

Heavy Combat Oriented Pretender viable both Early and Late Game (Think Natty, PoD, Phoenix, Daughter, Cyclops)

By daughter, do you mean the Daughter of the Land? I wasn't aware she was considered a Combat-oriented Pretender. I see as 'clam factory', normally.

Mass Engineers

Perhaps the most underestimated GE Arco commander.

Midgame I rely on Golembatants until I get my Mystic Support Spells in Line

This (and the other Earth summons) is why I wish GE could get Golem Cult. Hell, if they charged GE 50 points and gave them auto-Golem Cult, I'd still play them.

Abuse of Communion at every concievable opportunity

This is fun with Mystics.

I'm most curious about that Daughter thing.

[Blitz]

However, I wasn't aware that the Evocation-7 necessary to cast Nether Darts qualified as 'especially early game'.

Healing light and nether bolt are evo 5 IIRC. With jotunheim that level of evocation is a high priority.

[ June 24, 2004, 03:16: Message edited by: Blitz ]