Good game, but....the AI is very bad.

[proteus]

The HoMM3 AI is not cheating for example, and I cant tell you with words how good it is.
Try it and you will see.

Kristoffer or any other devs...can you tell us the content of the next patch?
What is what you are going to add/fix?
If I am correct we still wont have AI improvements, that wasnt hard to figure out, eh.
If not now, with the second patch from now, please try to improve the AI, and solve the problems step by step.

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by proteus:
A dev comment that it might be fixed...however they cannot guarantee it after lot of months..made me pissed.
So sorry for the tone of my Posts, but that made me very angry.

Perhaps all the pointless complaining made us pissed.

There was some constructive AI discussions recently that made me interested, but I'm quickly loosing interest. Right now I'm more interested in doing something I am feeling positive about like improving Pangaean themes or finishing the Shepherds of Creation scenario, or for that matter work at school.

The reason I do not say that there will not be an AI improvement is because we also feel that the AI should be improved.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by proteus:
In dominions 2. I win all games against 1-8 comps on all settings.
This tells about everything.

Actually, that tells us nothing, since you aren't discussing the nation you are playing, any of the game settings, which map you're using, and which opponents you've selected.

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by proteus:
The HoMM3 AI is not cheating for example, and I cant tell you with words how good it is.
Try it and you will see.

Kristoffer or any other devs...can you tell us the content of the next patch?
What is what you are going to add/fix?
If I am correct we still wont have AI improvements, that wasnt hard to figure out, eh.
If not now, with the second patch from now, please try to improve the AI, and solve the problems step by step.

No AI improvenents as of now, but a couple of balance changes that has been topics lately. Can't remember exactly.

[PrinzMegaherz]

This discussion is pointless.

The AI is as good as can be expected from a 2 man team. And I surely would not say that it is that bad. It is definitly a match for new players, and if I want a very challenging game then I play Mictlan (the nation I suck most with) against difficult Ermor.

The main problem with doing the AI is the following: You have to work out solutions for every possible situation, even those you have never encountered yourself, or situations where you actually don't know what to do. This might be fairly easy by such a simple game as heroes of might and magic, where you can calculate your decission down to a few parameters... however dominions 2 is so much more complicated with so many aspects to consider that the devs would surely need another ten years or so to code every smart solution.

What Illwinter actually did, very smart in my oppinion, is to take advantage of the computers strengths. Even today people discuss about the perfect army, the perfect strategy, and there is so much knowledge around here the AI could never match. Instead the AI uses some options that nearly every human would be too lazy to employ: It does the maximal recruitment possible out of every province and assemble huge armies.
Indeed, in most of my SP games and MP games involving AIs, they will leave everyone far behind in sheer numbers. Even tough their armies might not be the best designed, they are still a threat nontheless (in my current MP game, one of the more peacefull but most powerfull players dropped from the game. When the AI took over, its onslaught nearly brought 3 of his neighboring empires to its knees.

Imho the dominions 2 AI is comparable to that of Warcraft 3. Demanding at first, its not a match for an professional player.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by proteus:
The HoMM3 AI is not cheating for example, and I cant tell you with words how good it is.
Try it and you will see.

Ive played HoMM3 and you are correct. But its on a far less level of problem. Less units, less equip, less unit commands. But thats OK I can see the point.

The AI for Dom2 can be improved, has been improved, but will never be improved enough to not have these kinds of threads. If we get it to build LI at a level which works better for some nations then it will cause problems for others. If we get it to stop casting certain spells, or cast some more, or build sensible equip, or... well you see where its headed. There will always be more AI problems in a game like this one.

Kristoffer or any other devs...can you tell us the content of the next patch?
What is what you are going to add/fix?
If I am correct we still wont have AI improvements, that wasnt hard to figure out, eh.

Against my better judgement (as if that mattered) it appears that some responses to other loud threads here are getting addressed. But it does make sense that its multiplayer things that are loudly being proclaimed "broken".

And also a request of mine looks like its getting added (dont get mad Ive been requesting longer than you have)

If not now, with the second patch from now, please try to improve the AI, and solve the problems step by step.

He mentioned that a couple of threads had generated interest. Threads where Users discussed fixes and seemed willing to test them.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Vynd:
I like Dom II a lot, and I think that SP is fun. But difficult? No. Would I like to see the SP AI improved? Yes! Do I think its going to happen? No. But do proteus and his brother and whoever else have the right to complain about it? Heck yeah!

Well I was with you right up to the end. As far as their right to complain, ok. Doesnt that mean others have a right to say "shut up" if its hurting our chances of getting the AI fixed?

And actually I wouldnt use "right to complain" too often on a board that is owned by someone and provided for a specific reason. Doing damage to the reason can wash those "rights" away fast. This isnt usenet newsGroups.

[ May 09, 2004, 01:41: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[delacroix]

Originally posted by Molog:
I know AOW, MOM have horrible cheating AI's. Most players don't seem to mind though.

I certainly don't mind, Master of Magic / Orion were funnest and toughest at the impossible settings even though the AI receieved significant bonuses at those levels .

Certainly if a player didn't want the CPU opponents to cheat they could just play at normal difficulty instead.

[Leif_-]

Originally posted by Vynd:
But do proteus and his brother and whoever else have the right to complain about it? Heck yeah!

This is going to be a rant, just so that you're warned:

There's complaining, and there's complaining incessantly, ignoring the explanations and arguments against their complaints.

They certainly don't have a right to demand that Illwinter does this or does that, which is what they are doing. Unlike what they seem to think, computer games are bought as-is. Caveat emptor. Any support ontop of what you get in the box is a bonus and a matter of good service, rather than something you're entitled to.

In my opinion Illwinter has done a great job supporting the community around the game - remember that for most other games "patch" usually means "bug fixes" rather than "game improvements" which is what we've gotten used to. That makes it especially grating to see them harp upon Illwinter as if Illwinter hadn't given the community any kind of support or service at all, just because Illwinter hasn't prioritized their unreasonable requests.

So they paid $50 for the game. So what? The Dominions AI is not any weaker than what's common for full-price strategy games, so it's not like they could really expect something better for that price anyway. Sure, there are games out there with better AIs, but then it's not reasonable to compare Dominions 2 only with the best AI games out there.

They are also both still playing Dominions 2 after several months, so they can hardly argue that they didn't get their monies worth or that the AI makes the game unplayable in single player.

So, no. I don't think they've really got a right to complain. They've gotten what they paid for, and more; they have been explained why it's unreasonable to demand heavy improvements in the AI; they've been told that Illwinter doesn't have the resources a major software house has, and they've been told that the Dominion AI isn't really weaker than what's standard for similar games. Yet still they persist in their complaining and, frankly, whining.

[mlepinski]

I'll certainly agree that the dominions 2 AI isn't perfect, but it's not nearly as bad as threads like this would indicate.

In particular, it is definately possible to play a challenging game against the AI, you just need to adjust the map to put the AI in an advantagous position.

I find the most significant AI shortcoming to be the fact that the AI doesn't build forts. (The AI builds much more effective armies when it has multiple forts to recruit troops from). Therefore, I often play games where I start the AI with 2 forts (or even 3). Additionally, I'll stick some extra independent forts on the map for the AI to conquer.

In my opinion, playing a single game against 4 pairs of allied 'Difficult' AIs (8 AIs total) each starting with 2 forts on a map scattered with independent forts is an interesting single-player experience which is much more challenging than a 'standard' single-player game of Dominions.

So, even though the AI isn't perfect, I am satisfied because it's good enough to give me a challenging game under the right circumstances.

Just my 2 cents,
- Matt Lepinski :->