OT: US President (US Dom Players only)

[Gandalf Parker]

WARNING!
When a topic shifts from a topic to individuals it is in danger of disappearing

[JimMorrison]

In the grand scheme of bureaucratic governance, two things have seemed to emerge to become more and more true in the past few decades -

1) The Democrats are bad.

2) The Republicans are even worse.


This trend, which seems to be deepening, is pushing everyone towards a third conclusion -

3) Maybe we need to change our entire system before we will actually experience these "new ideas" and this "change" that everyone seems to agree that we need, but can never agree on how to do it because the people elected to espouse it (Repubs and Demos), look towards their own needs before they look to the needs of this once flourishing and progressive nation.


However, as our hands get forced, without a viable third option (it must be someone who captures the love and imagination of the vast majority of the people - no easy task), I, like many others, voted for Obama out of little more than abject terror at the thought of even 4 years of McCain (bad enough on their own, but following the last 8 it could be disastrous).

[licker]

The current crop of republicans are hardly republicans. What they represent is indeed terrible, but I'm not convinced that the democrats solutions are any better.

Goldwater republicans would be a welcome sight, but the party has been corrupted and those few who still preach and care about fiscal conservatism have essentially been cast aside for what used to be the moral majority type fringe.

We don't need someone to capture imagination, that's what Obama is trying to do, we need someone who actually has some basis for believing them when they say what they are going to do, and how they are going to do it.

Michael Bloomberg is perhaps the closest thing we have to this, but he's not running... yet...

When you vote for the lesser of two evils, you're still voting for evil. Man up, and don't buy the line that your vote doesn't count, because if you vote for democrat or republican, truly, your vote was wasted.

-Gandalf, understood, but its politics if someone spews a load of tripe they should be called on it (and that goes for me as well), I for one am able to keep my feelings about it separate from anything else. Though I am much more comfortable in a completely open forum setting, I understand that others do not want that.

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by licker

We don't need someone to capture imagination, that's what Obama is trying to do, we need someone who actually has some basis for believing them when they say what they are going to do, and how they are going to do it...

I didn't say "someone who can lead us off to fantasyland". Too many people look on politics with a dull, glazed-over, and disenchanted eye. They need someone whom they can BELIEVE will truly change the way that things work, for the betterment of all. Obviously, they need some kind of substance, they need something to offer us that we can believe in - both the vision and the inspiration are necessary.

Originally Posted by licker

When you vote for the lesser of two evils, you're still voting for evil. Man up, and don't buy the line that your vote doesn't count, because if you vote for democrat or republican, truly, your vote was wasted.

Nonsense. That's like saying that when you're imprisoned, and they feed you, that eating that food is accepting a life of imprisonment. If I let my principles allow McCain to win (say the vote went 40% Mccain, 30% Obama, 30% Nader), then I will have failed as a citizen, because people like McCain are the greatest threat that this nation faces.


We're in a sinking ship. You have 3 choices for votes this election - continue sinking, with McCain - a little bucket, with Obama, - or a brand new ship which isn't going to come in our stocking this year.

I'll take the bucket while more people figure out that we need the new ship.

[NTJedi]

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

I didn't say "someone who can lead us off to fantasyland". Too many people look on politics with a dull, glazed-over, and disenchanted eye. They need someone whom they can BELIEVE will truly change the way that things work, for the betterment of all. Obviously, they need some kind of substance, they need something to offer us that we can believe in - both the vision and the inspiration are necessary.

I don't have any faith Obama has what it takes to be president. I'm not happy about McCain either, but at least he has stronger experience in the military and businesses.

Any speeches about raising taxes for those of high income have never worked because there's way too many loop holes... so many the wealthy pay multi-certified accountants to find them otherwise the wealthy would just use H&R Block or equivalent. I'm sure many high income employees are provided types of payments which are overseas and non-taxable as well. The wealthy actually fuel each others income via charities(tax right off), investments(losses are tax right offs), advertising(tax right offs), etc., .

The only real way to effectively tax the wealthy would be a flat tax rate. Yet this will never happen because too many government employees rely on the complex tax system for jobs.

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by NTJedi

I don't have any faith Obama has what it takes to be president. I'm not happy about McCain either, but at least he has stronger experience in the military and businesses.

At what cost does this "experience" come? I honestly don't believe that anyone over 60 is going to be effectual at meeting the challenges of this rapidly changing modern world. We need someone with flexibility and ingenuity far more than we need someone with some tremendous depth of experience in running the country into the ground. Oddly enough, looking back at history, most of the presidents who did the best things for the country, were those who were younger when they took the office.

Originally Posted by NTJedi

Any speeches about raising taxes for those of high income have never worked because there's way too many loop holes... so many the wealthy pay multi-certified accountants to find them otherwise the wealthy would just use H&R Block or equivalent.

I am totally mystified by this argument. Since it will be difficult to try to tax the (exorbitantly) wealthy, you would prefer to vote someone in who has already pledged to reduce taxes on those whom we seem to have trouble getting money out of in the first place? Yes, it will be an uphill struggle to make massive multi-national conglomerate corporations, and their fabulously wealthy kings contribute fairly to the governance of the nation. However, to accomplish this goal, one must try. Only one of the two candidates who stands a chance to be elected is willing to try to fill loopholes, and raise the effectiveness of the system. The other candidate has stated quite clearly, time and time again, that he is in favor of reducing stated taxes on those who can afford them, and in creating more loopholes and deductions for them.

"Tax the poor and feed the rich - and you can be quite sure that eventually the rich will be so wealthy, they will take pity on the poor, and take better care of them."


Trickle down failed so miserably, I am quite amazed that anyone with an income below 100k/year actually believes we can continue in this way.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by rabelais

Oy, Politics.

I have an actual button with Spendios Cthulhu slogan.

It is true that the parties, as game theory would suggest, are less different than we would like, but ever since reagan got elected in 1980, after making a deal to *delay* the release of the Iranian hostages, and then getting caught giving them arms as the back end of a quid pro quo, it is VERY apparent that the parties are not the same.

The previously unimaginable horror show that Chimpy, {Gombe division} Inc. (err, I mean the Bush administration) has ushered in is just the second go around farce.

The funny thing about wanting the flee the country post-bush is ...that as a friend of mine pointed out, we don't have to move, very soon we'll be living in Peronist Brazil.

My wife and I have already voted for Obama in texas. (HAHAHA... pointless I know) He may disappoint us, or prove incapable of dislodging the corporate overlordship once he gets in.... but the certainty of disaster and perpetual war with McCain and his VP "W-in-a-skirt" makes it not a difficult choice.

Particularly as the republicans stole the last two elections, have gratuitously killed over a million iraqis and have nothing but obfuscation, vote suppression and racist-dog whistle fear-mongering to recommend them. Plus the McCain of this campaign makes Mitt Romney look principled.

We have a 4 month old... the world will be bad enough when he grows up, ...we don't have to make it worse by pretending political choices don't matter, assuming you believe the election isn't controlled by a consortium of Di-e-boldic imps inside the voting machines.

Conservatism is one thing, I think history has proven conservatives are almost always wrong, but it's plausible in its no longer practiced Burkean form... these people aren't conservatives, they are plutocratic fascists.

And that's all I've got to say about that....

I find this post to be so offensive as to almost be beyond words.

We live in a social contract. Denigrating people that believe differently than you - hardly bodes well for civic discourse.

Saying such things as 'the republicans stole the elections', conservatives are almost always wrong', 'these people aren't conservatives, they are plutocratic fascists' is immature, offenseive, and demonstrably wrong.

I find it particularly galling that leftists make arguments such as RRegan delayed the release of the hostages, Republicans stole the last two elections, the world trade centers were a government plot - without the merest shred of evidence.

[Cor2]

Am I the only one voting for Cynthia McKinney? I luv her

[Cor2]

one more thing,the republicans DID steal the elections, twice. But the democrats let them, so who cares?

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

I honestly don't believe that anyone over 60 is going to be effectual at meeting the challenges of this rapidly changing modern world..

Originally Posted by NTJedi

Any speeches about raising taxes for those of high income have never worked because there's way too many loop holes... so many the wealthy pay multi-certified accountants to find them otherwise the wealthy would just use H&R Block or equivalent.

Top 5% of earners pay 50% of the taxes in the U.S.

Originally Posted by NTJedi

Trickle down failed so miserably, I am quite amazed that anyone with an income below 100k/year actually believes we can continue in this way.

Up until 1904 or so we had no income tax, as such were directly prohibited in the constitution. We seemed to last fairly well without confiscatory tax policies.

Under Obamas tax plan, the top marginal rate including the change to social security goes to about .. 43.1%.

If you add the 16% average local tax burden - and more for those unlucky enough to pay state income taxes... the top marginal tax rate is over 65%.

And in what world is this *fair*? The US govt spends 2 trillion dollars a year - and this is not enough? In what world is adding 1 trillion dollars a year of new government spending a good idea?