Wishlist: Wasting High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds

[Ramm]

This may not be a bug if there is a work around.

First I would like to thank Don and Andy for adding the forced ability to use High Explosive Anti Tank Rounds against non armored targets. This is both realistic in an emergency situation and unrealistic in a non-emergency situation (85% of the time against AI).

In real life a unit commander can and does choose to use the wrong ammo because his balls are on the line, so this change was necessary from that standpoint. Unfortunately I am now forced to do this as well in some situations where it would not be called for.

I could be totally wrong in saying this is a bug, and if I am I would like to humbly apologize for wasting your time

My problem that I need help with is this: I want the ability to use HEAT only against hard targets and still retain the ability to op-fire against both soft and hard targets at all ranges.

I could do this before the forced ability and I wish to do so now. Wasting precious HEAT rounds is not my cup of tea, and I would very much like to learn how to save the ammo for the things it was meant against whilst not degrading op-fire response. I want the option to use it or not use it.

The way my luck is I'm probably the only person who wants my units to use HEAT sensibly.

If someone doesn't want to use HEAT as if it were HE then that person shouldn't have to. And they should be able to not use it without disabling weapons.

Please correct me if I'm wrong at any point and congrats to both Andy and Don for putting so much sweat into a game that I really enjoy!

Sincerely,
Andrew Nault

P.S. I paid my 70 bucks (or however much it was) for both games. And I would like to say: that would not even pay the electric bills to make this small ajustment to the game, let alone the salary you two would deserve from making this small change or any of the multitude of patches and mods! Therefore I would like to give you a hearfelt thanks for sacrificing your time.

[DRG]

OK

How about DETAILS ??? It's so nice to actually get them when people complain.

What unit?

What nation?

What year ?

Were there HE rounds available when the HEAT was selected to fire at soft targets ??

The ONLY chance this could actually be called a "bug" is if HEAT was being fired at soft targets when HE was available.

Don

[Ramm]

Originally Posted by DRG

OK

How about DETAILS ??? It's so nice to actually get them when people complain.

What unit?

What nation?

What year ?

Were there HE rounds available when the HEAT was selected to fire at soft targets ??

The ONLY chance this could actually be called a "bug" is if HEAT was being fired at soft targets when HE was available.

Don

All units

All nations

All years

No

From your perspective its apparently not a bug. From mine it is, can you tell me how not to waste heat on soft targets (without disabling weapons or any other such nonsense)? If you can there isn't any bug from anyone's perspective.

Do real life units use HEAT because thats all they have, yes!

Is it appropriate or realistic to ALWAYS use all but the last four HEAT? Heck no

First, it was not being able to use HEAT at all. This was a ridiculous error. You fixed it.

Now, we are FORCED to use all but the last four shots. Perhaps you can fix it again. And allow use to use HEAT in a sensible manor

Thank-you

Andrew Nault

[narwan]

All units? Well for MBT's that lack HE rounds HEAT rounds were supposed to fill the double role against both soft and hard targets. So I don't see a problem there.

Specialist ATGM units either have low ammo (like ATGM teams) that will make it unlikely they'll waste many rounds if any against soft targets. And you have the filter option to let these fire at hard targets which is their job. As these usually do very badly against soft targets there's little reason to want these to shot at soft targets so there doesn't seem to be a big problem there either.

That leaves multipurpose units like squads who can expect to fight both armor and soft targets. They will fire what they have and keep the last four HEAT rounds for use against armor. Seems very sensible to me. The AT weapons they have like LAW's, RPG's etc are not just antiarmor weapons. They are a squads ability to project some heavy blasting firepower against any target that needs it. That could be the wall the enemy squad 100m away is hiding behind (which in game terms means simply you'll fire a HEAT round at the target). It could be the MG position on the upper floor of a building where you can't get a riflegrenade or handgrenade in. There are countless examples you can come up with where a squad would use a HEAT weapon against another soft unit BECAUSE it is the right weapon to use.
Then there's off course the fact that commanders tend to use all means available to take out the enemy (think using hellfire's to hunt for snipers as we saw in recent conflicts). I'm not sure not all commanders would in reality reserve the last 4 rounds fro anti-armor use that may never occur.

The game mimics all that by firing HEAT against soft targets. You may not get a message that the enemy is hiding behind a wall a needs to be blasted but that's what's happening.

This is only an issue btw in the AI's turn as in your own you can simply turn the weapon off before firing.
But I don't think it's unrealistic, on the contrary.

Narwan

[Marcello]

You are confusing a feature with a bug.HEAT rounds are used against soft targets ALL the time in real life.

HEAT RPG-7s rounds have been and are being fired against personnel in every situation imaginable.

Most current western MBTs have only APFSDS and HEAT commonly available. Do you think that Abrams in Iraq have never used their main guns except in an emergency? Think again.

[Marek_Tucan]

Re. RPG, not only against soft targets but against helos as well - the Afghanis utilised the self-destruct feature of the PG-7 round(at about 900 meters from launch) to ambush Soviet choppers. Obviously, this required careful timing.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Ramm

allow use to use HEAT in a sensible manor

Thank-you

Andrew Nault

Well I think we do. You just disagree.

As you already noted from my perspective its not a bug and that "perspective" has not changed in any way but I'll give you the opportunity to explain how you think it should be re-programmed to behave in a "sensible manner"

Start by fully describing your idea of what a "sensible manner" would be when the AI is confronted by a threat and it has the tools to deal with that threat in the form of HEAT rounds. From your perspective it would appear NO heat rounds should be expended on soft targets you deem are not worthy of that round under certain circumstances . You have already said it was wrong in the past to not allow HEAT to be fired at soft targets so there must be cases where is "OK" to do so. Please explain how we are to filter "worthiness" to satisfy the criteria of "sensible manner" as defined by you. Perhaps we should reserve 6 rounds for AT work or maybe 8 or 10 or only fire HEAT after something that can kill you has been fired in your direction ?

I'm very interested in how you think this "sensible manner" should be implemented.



Don

[RERomine]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but doesn't the filter allow you to handle most of this? I know it doesn't allow you to choose whether to use HE or HEAT rounds, but it's already been said that the HE is gone in this scenario. If something is defined as a threat, you engage it knowing you will be firing HEAT rounds.

With the filter, you can define when a soft target becomes a threat. During the player turn, it's completely up to the player when they fire. And yes, you disable the main gun if you want to preserve you HEAT ammo. If you do so, the "threat" isn't really that big or you would touch if off with HEAT. Turning of the main gun is the game equivalent of issuing the order, GUNNER, COAX, TRUCK.

That's my 2 cents.

[Ramm]

Originally Posted by DRG

Well I think we do. You just disagree.

As you already noted from my perspective its not a bug and that "perspective" has not changed in any way but I'll give you the opportunity to explain how you think it should be re-programmed to behave in a "sensible manner"

Start by fully describing your idea of what a "sensible manner" would be when the AI is confronted by a threat and it has the tools to deal with that threat in the form of HEAT rounds. From your perspective it would appear NO heat rounds should be expended on soft targets you deem are not worthy of that round under certain circumstances . You have already said it was wrong in the past to not allow HEAT to be fired at soft targets so there must be cases where is "OK" to do so. Please explain how we are to filter "worthiness" to satisfy the criteria of "sensible manner" as defined by you. Perhaps we should reserve 6 rounds for AT work or maybe 8 or 10 or only fire HEAT after something that can kill you has been fired in your direction ?

I'm very interested in how you think this "sensible manner" should be implemented.



Don

A Modest Proposal For The Expenditure of HEAT Ammunition

I want the ability to disable HEAT ammunition expenditure during the computers turn except against hard targets whilst still maintaining the ability to engage both hard and soft targets.

You are asking when the situation arises where I feel the need to limit my rampant HEAT hemorrhaging, correct? For me it happens every game. Some suggest disabling weapons, BUT this would truly be hard to do during the computers turn! Some suggest filtering my unit via the most arcane method of unit fire filtering, but neither is this a equitable solution.

I could filter my unit but that would not solve my problem. If for example I told my unit not to engage soft targets to prevent HEAT wastage my unit wouldn't be able met threats from a soft target! In this instance my unit would only use up HEAT against hard targets, however it would not be able to engage a soft target at all.

I propose that the player be given the option via the preference menu to withhold permission to expend HEAT ammunition except against hard targets. This would satisfy me.

You can either say yes or no to this, nothing is lost by my for asking Give me the option to use or not to use and let me decide the worthiness.

GOOD DAY SIR

Andrew Nault

[Ramm]

Originally Posted by DRG

Well I think we do. You just disagree.

As you already noted from my perspective its not a bug and that "perspective" has not changed in any way but I'll give you the opportunity to explain how you think it should be re-programmed to behave in a "sensible manner"

Start by fully describing your idea of what a "sensible manner" would be when the AI is confronted by a threat and it has the tools to deal with that threat in the form of HEAT rounds. From your perspective it would appear NO heat rounds should be expended on soft targets you deem are not worthy of that round under certain circumstances . You have already said it was wrong in the past to not allow HEAT to be fired at soft targets so there must be cases where is "OK" to do so. Please explain how we are to filter "worthiness" to satisfy the criteria of "sensible manner" as defined by you. Perhaps we should reserve 6 rounds for AT work or maybe 8 or 10 or only fire HEAT after something that can kill you has been fired in your direction ?

I'm very interested in how you think this "sensible manner" should be implemented.



Don

A Modest Proposal For The Expenditure of HEAT Ammunition

I want the ability to disable HEAT ammunition expenditure during the computers turn except against hard targets whilst still maintaining the ability to engage both hard and soft targets.

You are asking when the situation arises where I feel the need to limit my rampant HEAT hemorrhaging, correct? For me it happens every game. Some suggest disabling weapons, BUT this would truly be hard to do during the computers turn! Some suggest filtering my unit via the most arcane method of unit fire filtering, but neither is this a equitable solution.

I could filter my unit but that would not solve my problem. If for example I told my unit not to engage soft targets to prevent HEAT wastage my unit wouldn't be able met threats from a soft target! In this instance my unit would only use up HEAT against hard targets as per the authors request, however it would not be able to engage a soft target at all.

I propose that the player be given the option via the preference menu to withhold permission to expend HEAT ammunition except against hard targets. This would satisfy me.

You can either say yes or no to this, nothing is lost by my for asking Give me the option to use it or not, let me decide whether the moment is right.

GOOD DAY SIR

Andrew Nault

Please delete my last message, it was a mistake and this copy includes several changes!