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  #1  
Old August 17th, 2005, 01:07 AM
MarkSheppard's Avatar

MarkSheppard MarkSheppard is offline
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Default Unit Creation Chart v1

Link

Hopefully, these will help people make up their own hypothetical units, or translate real world data into
gamedata; does anyone have any suggestions or changes
for the chart?
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  #2  
Old August 17th, 2005, 09:47 AM
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Default Re: Unit Creation Chart v1

Nothing to add except it is perfect as a modding tool. Thanks.
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  #3  
Old August 17th, 2005, 12:55 PM
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Default Re: Unit Creation Chart v1

Quote:
MarkSheppard said:
Link

Hopefully, these will help people make up their own hypothetical units, or translate real world data into
gamedata; does anyone have any suggestions or changes
for the chart?
First - You should note on there that they are your guide figures and so not "official" and that saves some folk thinking they are "written in stone", and anything deviating from the "laws" is not kosher etc.

I'd put a title with your name etc at the top, and an introductory paragraph explaining that these are your own unnoficial guide figures. (Otherwise we will get folk coming back to us and querying OOB details against this page's guide figures !

Missing:
Most vehicle IR searchlights are 20, some smaller ones can be 15, large ones such as the searchlight on early chieftains can be a bit more than 20. Some very small IR lamps could concievably be 10. There is no way to do the separated IR system used in WW2 UHU German vehicles - so the UHU panther needs individual Tx/Rx IR sight, and the UHU Tx IR searchlight halftracks can safely be ignored as thus irrelevant.

LLTV/Image intensifiers tend to be 30 if vehicle mounted.

GSR tends to be 50-60 or so. (if carried by an arty observer then usually the speed is reduced 1 to 5 to allow for the bulky kit).

Thermal imagers need to be 40+. There is no way to handle small man-portable TI systems like fire and rescue units (and some leg units) can have. So leg units with TI tend to be full size 40 (some scouts, FOOS etc). A foot unit with a 40 rating could be a TI sight or a smaller GSR - in game terms, not relevant as they are thermal sights either way.

Infantry night sights (usually snipers) - can be 5, 10 15 and the technology (IR, TI, II etc) is ignored. Some snipers, ground weapons, FOOS, etc etc may have vehicle type ratings (say 20-30), and any with TI will need to be 40+ as noted above.

Night ratings < 5 are generally not useful as the game usually produces higher vision than 5, rarely less, but now we can manually adjust scenario vision (e.g in campaigns) - values <5 MAY be worth bothering with.

White light searchlights:
We really don't bother with these at all. It would need proper night fighting rules (anyone could see the searcher at long ranges, same should be true of active IR as well, to anyone with an IR (including TI) night sight!).

Rangefinders:
Cannon armed vehicles can have say 8-12 or so RF added, even if they have no "specific" range finder device. Seems to be used in some OOBS for later vehicles which use the same basic cannon etc. Up to the OOB designer if he does this. (Everything is up to the OOB designer really, there are no "laws" - simply guidelines - and the points calculator adjusts for any added goodies).


Cheers
Andy
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  #4  
Old August 17th, 2005, 01:59 PM
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Default Re: Unit Creation Chart v1

Quote:
First - You should note on there that they are your guide figures and so not "official" and that saves some folk thinking they are "written in stone", and anything deviating from the "laws" is not kosher etc.

I'd put a title with your name etc at the top, and an introductory paragraph explaining that these are your own unnoficial guide figures. (Otherwise we will get folk coming back to us and querying OOB details against this page's guide figures !
LOL, I understand where you're coming from, I'll definitely
update this to have a disclaimer; et cetera. But some of it
is derived from the formulas that are in the MOBhack help
file; in particular, the Warhead Size Chart is a faithful
reproduction of the formula found in MOBhack help.

Others are gleaned from my copying down representative samples
of equipment from the WinMBT OOBs and staring at the data trying
to discern a pattern; I noticed that all the brand-new soviet tanks
produced in a particular era had such and such FC/Rangefinder ratings.

Quote:
Most vehicle IR searchlights are 20, some smaller ones can be 15, large ones such as the searchlight on early chieftains can be a bit more than 20. Some very small IR lamps could concievably be 10.
I found a piece of data buried in "Manual03.htm" giving the formula used for Vision:

If game visibility is say 3 hexes, and you have a vision capacity of 12, you can see 9 hexes further than unaided units, which can be vital and devastating.

The realization hit me like a lightbulb: Vision is how far your unit can see, irrevelant
of the scenario vision setting.

I recently found a publication titled TankPOWER : PzKpfw. V Panther Vol. 2 from
AJ Press in Polish/English that gave actual hard data for German WW2 IR gear; and this
is what I used for the Vision table.

FG 1223c

Produced by AF.G, Leitz and Zeiss. An active night-vision tank commander observation device, also used as a night-vision sighting device, mounted on a tank turret cupola. Its platform was coupled via a metal band through an opening in the turret roof with an internal gun elevation indicator. Bildwandler of 90 mm focal length, with 30 deg field of view, range: in active mode up to 400 m, passive 8000 m. This latter may seem much, but one must remember, that in passive mode the image was blurred, and therefore it couldn't be used for gun laying, thus reducing the night-vision sighting capabilities to the active mode range of a more modest 400 m. Coupled with a UR-Scheinwerfer of 200 mm diameter and 200W power. A development of the Sp.IIa, mass-produced.

FG 1250

Produced by AEG and Leitz. An active tank commander night-vision observation and sighting device for Panther tanks, mounted on a platform in the open cupola hatch. Based on a Bildwandler of 90 mm focal length with 30 deg field of view, with maximum passive range of 8000 m and 400 m active range. Coupled with a UR-Scheinwerfer of 200 mm diameter and 200W power. The FG 1250 device was connected via metal band through an opening in the turret roof with an internal gun elevation indicator. The FG 1250 had the same range limitations as the previous models of tank commander's devices.

FG 1250 could also be coupled with a machine gun — MG34 on the Panther or MG42 on the Falke variation of the SdKfz 251 APC. The Falke (Falcon) APC had two FG 1250s. One of these was fitted to the MG42 on the frontal position over the driver compartment's hood and used by the vehicle's commander for surveillance and sighting of the MG. The other was fitted to the platform bolted in front of the driver's vision hatch, which had to be open to enable the driver to use it. To enhance the bullet-protection compromised by the opening of the hatch, a small deflector was welded at the side of the hatch opening. The driver's Bildwandler and separately mounted UR-Scheinwerfer (on a post between driver and assistant driver vision hatches) were coupled, so that the driver could shift them together, should the need arise. Falke infantry had night-vision sighted StG 44 assault rifles (see below for personal IR devices). On the drivers' FG 1250 a heated front glass with a remote operated wiper could be fitted. FG 1250 was a development of the FG 1221k and 1223. It was mass-produced.

FG 1251 Uhu

Produced by AEG and Leitz. It was an active night-vision long range observation system, based on a specially rebuilt SdKfz 251 APC — an SdKfz 251/20 Uhu (Owl). It had a massive UR-Scheinwerfer (a 600 mm, 6000W arc light), coupled with a Bildwandler of equally heroic proportions, with 400 mm focal length and a narrow 4.5 deg field of view— but with an active range of up to 1500 m, and a tenfold bigger passive one. The whole of this mammoth contraption was mounted on a common turntable, taking the whole of the troop compartment of the APC. Plans were afoot to replace the energy thirsty arc light with two 600 mm diameter 500W lamps, which gave the same range, but operated on 28V current. These were to be turned through 90 deg for transport, and deployed like a big set of Mickey Mouse ears for field use.

ZG 1229 Vampir

Produced by AEG, RPF and Leitz. An active night-vision sighting device or Zielgerät — hence the ZG designator — for the StG 44 assault rifle. It had a Bildwandler built around the Type 128 diode lamp, with focal length of 750 mm and 2 deg field of view at the maximum active range of ca. 100 m. Coupled with it was a Scheinwerfer of 100 mm (125 mm in other sources) diameter and 36W power. The sighting component of the device weighed in at 2,25 kg, which was far from the total burden the user had to bear to enjoy the convenience of precisely-aimed shooting at night.

One also had to carry the 13,5 kg wooden cased battery for the Scheinwerfer, not to mention the second battery for the Bildwandler, fitted inside the gas mask container and slung across the back. The Sturmgewehr 44 had to be specially fitted with mounting lugs for the ZG 1229 Vampir, and these modifications were made at the weapon's main production plant, C. G. Haenel at Suhl. First used in combat in February 1945.

The Uhu Bildwandler was a further development of the Navy's Gerät Mosel (J IIb) shore based night-vision sea surveillance system, fitted with a 1500 mm diameter, 16,000 W UR-Scheinwerfer giving it a 7000 m active mode range. Gerät Mosel was series-built and battle-proven. Up till the end of war 60 Uhu units were built, with 600 more under construction.

In addition to the main night-vision system, the Uhu vehicle carried also an active night-vision device for its driver

— various types of these were employed, FG 1223, FG 1250 or FG 1252 (see below).

Uhus, Falkes and Panthers operated in teams. Uhu carried out long distance surveillance and illuminated the battlefield with IR, enabling the Panther and Falke to see — and aim — further than their own active range. The Panther commander's FG 1250 would, with the aid of a Uhu, extend the night fire range to over 800 m, twice the performance of the sight itself. When co-operating with Panthers, the Uhu was outfitted with an additional Fu 5 radio set.


Quote:
There is no way to do the separated IR system used in WW2 UHU German vehicles - so the UHU panther needs individual Tx/Rx IR sight, and the UHU Tx IR searchlight halftracks can safely be ignored as thus irrelevant.
Actually, I'm not so sure about that; I had another lightbulb go off in my head. If the
Panther G with IR or the SdKfz 251 Falke have night vision ranges of only 400m in active
mode; while the SdKfz 251/20 Uhu has that massive IR light giving an active range of 1500m
for it's use alone; and we know from the description above, that with an Uhu operating nearby,
their maximum effective range is doubled to 800m, it would be possible to use the Steel Panthers
IVIS-style system of "If one unit sees it, we know where it is on the map" to fake the effect
of 251/20 Uhu tactics in Panther nightfighting by having a Uhu with a vision rating of 30
providing overwatch vision capability to Panthers with shorter ranged FG 1250s.

Quote:
Infantry night sights (usually snipers) - can be 5, 10 15 and the technology (IR, TI, II etc) is ignored.
Well, there are dramatic differences between the various Generations of image
intensification technologies; according to Globalsecurity.org, Generation 0 LLTV
is 1,000x; Gen 2 is 20,000x, and Gen 3 is 30,000 to 50,000x, in terms of how much
amplification of light they can do.

Quote:
Cannon armed vehicles can have say 8-12 or so RF added, even if they have no "specific" range finder device.
Yes, I do know that the Patton series of tanks from the M-47 onwards had a stereoscopic
rangefinder, and I see them as having a rangefinder rating of 18 in WinMBT; which is
rather high for the time period (1950s), it's almost as good as a laser rangefinder (22);
so I logically used that as a baseline for stereoscopic rangefinders.

Sorry if I'm being a bit picky and anal here; but I really do like doing all this research,
as I find out stuff that I wouldn't have found out otherwise.
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  #5  
Old August 18th, 2005, 04:58 AM
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Default Re: Unit Creation Chart v1

ID range for TIS(M1,M1A1 and M1A2)is around 2000m,TTS in M60A3 and Russian II.gen TI has ID range 2500m,Ukranian II.gen TI (Used in T-72MP and T-84U) 3000m. M1A2 SEP around 4000m.
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