XM8 AGS

[SGTGunn]

Hi,

Has anyone created an icon for the XM8 AGS or the Stingray?

Adrian

[pdoktar]

Check out SE Asian oobs (Thailand etc.) I remember seeing exported Stingrays there.

[Randy]

Just think if you have a platoon of them in your game, you'll probably have more than the Army has in real life! Its a shame the Army threw this weapon away!

[SGTGunn]

It looks like the M8 might be resurrected. The US Army had taken interest in the project again, to include developing a 120mm armed version, and a hybrid diesel-electric drive version.

One can always hope.

Adrian

[Randy]

WOW! A 120mm on something that small! Thats quite a punch. I really think the Army should go ahead with this, since I don't have much hope for the Future Combat System. I recently read that the Brits may be scaling their version down. I guess the technology is too expensive right now. I think I also read that the Stryker 105mm MGS is still having problems. Anyone have info on this?

[PlasmaKrab]

Some people have been implying that the Stryker MGS was bound to problems in firing at high azimuth angles (3 and 9 o'clock) due to its high gravity center.
But considering the relative amounts of rant and truth that is currently expressed on that still heated matter, I have no idea whom you can trust about the Stryker.

Still, a 120mm on the M8 doesn't sound too weird, provided you don't expect M256-like punch. Remember that low-recoil 50-cal 120mm guns have been fitted on Leopard1s and Swiss Pz68s, and consider the Russian 2S25 on an extended BMD-3 chassis.

Besides, it would make sense from a logistical POV, meaning the whole US Army would get rid of the 105mm M68 caliber. Now the effect on rounds on board and field logistics is another matter...

[Gooseman2448]

I read a article that the problem was in the muzzle break.

Also found this info on a smoothbore 105mm gun that matches close to 120mm on early Leopard 2 (L44) and M1A1 (M256).

Here it is:

10/23/2001

Mobile gun system: Rheinmetall 105mm smooth bore gun for the US Army's Brigade Combat Team

In response to the US Army's requirement for a mobile gun system to equip its Brigade Combat Teams (BCT), Germany's Rheinmetall W&M GmbH is offering a 105mm smooth bore gun system whose performance is equivalent to larger caliber systems, but features a clear advantage for the LAV III class vehicle in terms of weight and size, thus resulting in greater flexibility and better mobility.

Rheinmetall W&M is a subsidiary of Rheinmetall DeTec AG, one of Europe's leading defense systems suppliers of ground forces equipment. W&M is a world leader in large caliber weapons systems and ammunition.

In cooperation and in close consultation with General Dynamics Land Systems (GDLS) and Alliant Techsystems (ATK), Rheinmetall W&M believes there is an excellent chance of supplying an improved 105mm armament for the mobile gun system under a pre-planned upgrade effort for the Brigade Combat Team. GDLS, teamed with GM of Canada, is now manufacturing the ten LAV III (Light Armored Vehicle) variants for the US Army and is directly responsible for the MGS.

Rheinmetall set its sights on an anticipated block upgrade, called P3I for pre-planned product improvement, of the mobile gun system, which can be fielded in the 2004 time frame. Overall plans call for fielding over 2,000 LAV III of which about more than 200 will be MGS variants.

The Army planning calls for the MGS to be primarily an infantry support vehicle with a limited anti-tank mission. One key performance requirement is to breach a reinforced concrete wall so that foot soldiers can have direct access through fortifications or to a building. The existing M68A1 rifled cannon, a derivative of the L7, will be on first production MGS vehicles. Follow on fielding to selected brigades are expected to require a tank-defeating role beyond the T-62 main battle tank.

With a view to an army-sponsored pre-planned product improvement (P3I) project, Rheinmetall W&M is offering its 105mm smooth bore gun for the MGS. Currently such an upgrade package can be delivered starting in 2004.

In terms of performance, the Rheinmetall high-pressure smooth bore gun offers the lethality equal to first generation 120mm smooth bore guns fielded in the Leopard 2 (L44) and M1A1 (M256) Abrams. It exceeds a desired goal of defeating the T-72 main battle tank. In terms of gas pressure, the Rheinmetall gun is capable of firing ammunition with pressures of about 1,000 bar higher than in comparable rifled barrels. This results in a significantly higher velocity, range and enhancement to penetration power or lethality.

The smooth bore gun encompasses a growth potential well beyond the 105mm conventional powder/ rifled gun limits. By increasing the volume of the chamber, for example, the maximum range and lethality can be dramatically extended. Along this projected growth path, designers anticipated that next generation propulsion means, such as electro-thermal chemical (ETC), could be inexpensively retrofitted to lightweight platforms. Thus viewed in an evolutionary sense, the 105mm smooth bore gun is seen as fulfilling a vital role for the MGS and a firepower "bridge" to the combat system of the future.

The US Army's chief of Staff, GEN. Eric Shinseki, experienced the power and accuracy of the 105mm smooth bore gun first-hand when he visited the Rheinmetall proving grounds at Unterlüß last December. He was impressed when the gun caught his attention while on display at AUSA 2000. Rheinmetall is encouraged by the continued US Army interest in the potential of the 105mm smooth bore gun to enhance the mobile gun system in the future.

Rheinmetall's long-established experience in large caliber weapon systems, especially smooth bore technology, enables it to draw upon an existing design when maturing the 105mm. Flowing into the design are state-of-the-art enhancements derived from the company's L44 and L55 120mm and the L52 155mm cannons - representing the latest in tactical, technical and manufacturing knowledge.

The decisive performance of the Nato standard 120mm L44 tank cannon on the Leopard 2 is acknowledged worldwide. With a longer barreled 120mm L55 tank gun and accompanying advanced ammunition, Rheinmetall W&M is again on the way to establishing a new higher standard in main battle tank direct fire performance. Likewise, it is Rheinmetall's 155mm L52 cannon that advances the PzH 2000 self-propelled howitzer to the forefront as the most powerful artillery system ever fielded.

The large caliber cannon leadership role enjoyed by Rheinmetall W&M, together with a century of experience, enables the company to attain the high level of direct fire lethality encompassed in the 105mm direct fire regime. A buildup of technical know-how assembled, especially over the last 15 years in Nato advanced tank armament programs, makes possible a flow down from 120mm and 140mm smooth bore guns to generate a performance not achieved before in a 105mm tank cannon.

The application of advanced ultra-hard gun steel employed in the L55 gun on Leopard 2 enables the 105mm smooth bore to withstand the stresses accompanying use of superior performance and high-pressure fourth generation kinetic energy ammunition. Ultra modern technologies are employed in the manufacture of critical elements, such as the lightweight aluminum cradle and a new advanced method of chrome plating and laser hardening of the barrel, both of which are critical to attain gun tube straightness and aid in wear reduction.

A special feature of the modern Rheinmetall 105mm smooth bore gun is its ability to fire existing Nato stockpiled fin-stabilized rifled ammunition by a modification to the driving band. This feature was shown to the US Army chief of staff in the live fire demonstration firing the DM128 CSDS-T originally type classified and used in the L7 and acquired for US forces in Germany using the M68A1 gun on the M1 Abrams.

The Rheinmetall tradition of excellence in large caliber weapons dates back to 1898 when the company produced their first barrels for artillery pieces. Today, building on a strong foundation of technical excellence, Rheinmetall W&M is first among the world's most innovative and efficient suppliers of ground force equipment. Apart from outstanding competence as a supplier of defense systems, the company is a highly experienced leader in international cooperation, typified by its long standing successful partnership with Alliant Techsystems (ATK).

Innovative ammunition solutions such as the MTLS modular propelling charge system and the SMArt 155 sensor fuzed munition are a few examples of Rheinmetall leading the way to the future in land combat products.

[Gooseman2448]

Here is the article from Defence Industry Daily about the M1128 MGS recoil problem.

Also on this day: 02-Feb-2006 »

MGS - C'est What?!?
General Dynamics Land Systems in Sterling Heights, MI received a $24.5 million contract for spare parts that are unique to the two newest Stryker variants: the M1128 Stryker Mobile Gun System (MGS) and the M1135 Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Reconnaissance Vehicle (NBCRV). This contract funds procurement of initial unique spares for the first-time fielding of these two variants, and has a total potential value of $50 million if all options are exercised.

So, how does this fit into the evolution of the USA's Stryker vehicle family, and future production plans?


A program timeline
The Stryker MGS and NBCRV variants entered low-rate initial production (LRIP) in December 2005. General Dynamics will deliver 17 of the Stryker NBC Reconnaissance Version and 72 of the Mobile Gun Sysytem variants during low-rate initial production. The vehicles will be used for various tests and user evaluations through Q4 2007, and the Milestone C decision to begin full-rate production of both variants is also slated for the fourth quarter of 2007.

The M1128 Stryker MGS variant is meant as a direct-fire infantry assault vehicle with a 105mm cannon mounted in a low-profile, fully stabilized, "shoot-on-the-move" turret. It's intended to provide firepower support for Stryker Brigade Combat Teams, primarily for engaging hardened positions but also for dealing with enemy vehicles as required. It will also be used by the Canadian Armed forces.

Stryker MGS has had a rocky development history, with widespread reports of problems with the recoil of its gun and center of gravity. DID's photo up top would even appear to indicate a support bracket for firing tests, though a specific inquiry to General Dynamics Land Systems, we received this response:



As you can see from the photo the recoil is not a problem firing the gun for the vehicle.... in the past critics have made the claim that you could not fire over the side but the photo proves you can. What you identified in the red box is the instrumentation cables used to manual fire the gun and collect data. Other photos show the same cables as well.

Recoil was not an issue it was the pepper-pot muzzle break on the earlier vehicles that was used to let gas escape and lesson the recoil. When we lowered the gun turret to allow loading in C-130 Hercules the gas from firing was too close to the vehicles front end. We returned to a standard 105mm cannon without the pepper pot muzzle break and adjusted for the recoil in the mechanism.

[Mobhack]

In future - if this is already available on line at somebody's site, then posting a URL to the article in question would probably be better than copying it entire to the group. (Issues of copyright etc for one thing).

Cheers
Andy

[Gooseman2448]

Sorry MOB,

I'm a copy and paster. I'll link them next time.