Devnull and Retrofitting

[Grandpa Kim]

This can't be right!

I had some tech research completing in the next couple turns so I designed some ships with spaces left open for these improvements. Specifically, solar sail III, combat sensors III and ECM III.

When these became available I retrofitted to the new design. Now, this is a very simple retrofit: no components to remove, just the three to add. But something about the price to retrofit seemed wrong....

The costs for these components are:
Solar Sail III 400 mins 100 rads
Combat Sensors III 400 mins
ECM III 400 mins

Total 1200 mins 100 rads

Cost to retrofit 840 mins 70 rads !!!!!!

WTF!

So I checked settings.txt

SEIV default:

Retrofit Cost Percent For Comps := 120
Retrofit Cost Percent For Comp Removal := 30

Devnull:

Retrofit Cost Percent For Comps := 70
Retrofit Cost Percent For Comp Removal := 10

Sho' nuf! It is cheaper to retrofit in Devnull than to build from scratch!

Think about what this means. Resources are tight? Why, just retro build your ships; you'll save up to 30%! .... And build more ships faster!

This must be an oversight by the Devnull creators. I defy anyone to give me a rational reason for this oddity.

[ October 26, 2003, 01:38: Message edited by: Grandpa Kim ]

[Fyron]

Hmm... that is odd.

[Ed Kolis]

I guess whoever set that option forgot that when you retrofit, you're not necessarily upgrading a component to a more advanced Version of the same component... hey, think about it, if you have an Anti-Proton Beam III, it should only take installation of a newer model flux capacitor and a higher powered containment magnet to make it functionally equivalent to an Anti-Proton Beam IV, right? You don't have to scrap the whole component!
edit: scrap, huh? even if you did, you normally get 30% back from scrapping... 100% - 30% = 70%... that might explain it!

[ October 26, 2003, 15:49: Message edited by: Ed Kolis ]

[Grandpa Kim]

Ed, you make good points... but they are real world points. My concern is with game balance and playability. It now appears the cheapest way to build in Devnull is retro-series, despite the extra costs for more repair ships and bases. Add in the known advantages of retro-series building and standard construction is thrown out the window.

Now, I'm the micro-manager type, but the thought of full time retro series building makes my teeth ache. The majority of players try to minimize micro management and they simply will not do it! That gives a significant advantage to those who will.

For the good of the mod, I would like to see Geoschmo and Rollo change this back to SEIV defaults.

[Rollo]

hmm, I never knew these values were changed. You are right Grandpa Kim, this makes little sense.
I will raise the values in the next Version of DNM. Not sure about default, though. It seems the intention of the original authors to make retrofit cheaper. So I am likely to follow the spirit of the mod and offer a discount for retrofits as well.
Speaking of retrofits, how about raising the 'Retrofit Max Percent Difference in Cost'?

[spoon]

Originally posted by Rollo:
I will raise the values in the next Version of DNM. Not sure about default, though. It seems the intention of the original authors to make retrofit cheaper. So I am likely to follow the spirit of the mod and offer a discount for retrofits as well.
Speaking of retrofits, how about raising the 'Retrofit Max Percent Difference in Cost'?

If you want to make retrofitting cheaper than stock, but not make a loophole that can be exploited as much, the minimum settings I'd use are these:

Retrofit Cost Percent For Comps: 100
Retrofit Cost Percent For Comp Removal: 0
Retrofit Max Percent Difference in Cost: 50

I wouldn't make the Max Percent Diff larger - you'd lose a big part of the balancing factor (time).

[ October 28, 2003, 16:59: Message edited by: spoon ]

[JLS]

Originally posted by Rollo:
hmm, I never knew these values were changed. You are right Grandpa Kim, this makes little sense.
I will raise the values in the next Version of DNM. Not sure about default, though. It seems the intention of the original authors to make retrofit cheaper. So I am likely to follow the spirit of the mod and offer a discount for retrofits as well.
Speaking of retrofits, how about raising the 'Retrofit Max Percent Difference in Cost'?

Rollo, I know I see (or told about) changes in the Data after released that I never really recall consciously making, I think it is the family cat walking across the key board.

Think it happens to all of us.

[ October 28, 2003, 20:07: Message edited by: JLS ]

[Grandpa Kim]

Originally posted by spoon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rollo:
I will raise the values in the next Version of DNM. Not sure about default, though. It seems the intention of the original authors to make retrofit cheaper. So I am likely to follow the spirit of the mod and offer a discount for retrofits as well.
Speaking of retrofits, how about raising the 'Retrofit Max Percent Difference in Cost'?

If you want to make retrofitting cheaper than stock, but not make a loophole that can be exploited as much, the minimum settings I'd use are these:

Retrofit Cost Percent For Comps: 100
Retrofit Cost Percent For Comp Removal: 0
Retrofit Max Percent Difference in Cost: 50

I wouldn't make the Max Percent Diff larger - you'd lose a big part of the balancing factor (time).

---

Rollo, spoon, in general I like this idea, but I think there should be some sort of cost penalty to retrofit. Either "Retrofit Cost Percent For Comps: 110" or "Retrofit Cost Percent For Comp Removal 10".

On the other hand, this whole thing may be a "cat"astrophe.

[Rollo]

Originally posted by JLS:
Rollo, I know I see (or told about) changes in the Data after released that I never really recall consciously making, I think it is the family cat walking across the key board.

Think it happens to all of us.

Well, it is a bit different. I didn't create the mod in the first place. I just did the update for SE4 Gold together with Geoschmo and now doing the maintenance. So, I am not really aware of all the changes in DNM.
Very likely there will be more easter eggs for me and others to discover .

Rollo

[Rollo]

Originally posted by spoon:
If you want to make retrofitting cheaper than stock, but not make a loophole that can be exploited as much, the minimum settings I'd use are these:

Retrofit Cost Percent For Comps: 100
Retrofit Cost Percent For Comp Removal: 0
...

Originally posted by Grandpa Kim:
Rollo, spoon, in general I like this idea, but I think there should be some sort of cost penalty to retrofit. Either "Retrofit Cost Percent For Comps: 110" or "Retrofit Cost Percent For Comp Removal 10"...

yeah, something like that. I was thinking 110/15 perhaps.