HD combat in Syria

[DRG]

Remarkable footage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bsDP5DznDQ

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YD8yTGCMkLg

[Wiking]

I saw these a few months ago, and it really is a fascinating look at urban combat with tanks. They seem so potent and yet so vulnerable.

Notice how the Syrian infantry don't seem too eager to stick close to the tanks, probably recognizing how much fire they draw (to say nothing of the hellacious backblast from those main guns).

[Suhiir]

Yeah I noticed the tank-infantry cooperation was poor right off.
More then any other combat situation armor and infantry rely on each other in an urban environment.

[Wiking]

Arab armies in general seem to have fairly poor combined arms training. That or whatever training they did have fell apart as the civil war expanded. Either way, I'm pretty sure those T-72's are really vulnerable without the infantry sticking close by.

[jivemi]

Originally Posted by Wiking

Arab armies in general seem to have fairly poor combined arms training. That or whatever training they did have fell apart as the civil war expanded. Either way, I'm pretty sure those T-72's are really vulnerable without the infantry sticking close by.

Yeah, but whatcha gonna do against ATGM's (Kornet, Konkurs, Javelin, etc.) fired from a mile or more away in open country? Infantry might spot the firing position but even so they've only got maybe 10-15 seconds to interfere. If the tank crew doesn't spot the firing team and neutralize it first, evade or have onboard anti-missile systems it's practically dead meat. Unless they can pray to a Higher Being...

[Wiking]

True, but its better than -not- having the infantry around at all! I'm pretty sure their T-72's are not the latest and greatest, and all buttoned up like that they're going to see even less in an urban environs.

I'm reminded of all the times I cavalierly order my infantry to just sweep ahead of the tanks and eat the casualties without regard.

Makes you think.

[jivemi]

Originally Posted by Wiking

True, but its better than -not- having the infantry around at all!

Really. If you don't have CIWS/VIRSS nowadays all you can do is either try to spot the "gunner" (missileer?) and suppress him with counter-fire (which in these cases the Syrian infantry was unable to do) or try to evade the missile itself. Good luck!

[Airborne Rifles]

It's also interesting to realize how small an area urban fighting can restrict relatively large forces to. That tank platoon and at least a platoon of infantry were wholly focused on that alley, the building, and the soccer field for at least two days. I think the camera perspective shows how small that area really is, though I'm sure it seemed like a labyrinth to the men fighting there.

[Suhiir]

Really depends how your tank-infantry teams are trained to operate together.

For the most part the US Army was (is still?) equipped/trained for "The Big Battle", a primarily armor vs armor engagement. In such a case the infantry supports the armor who sometimes seems to forget infantry can't move as fast when dismounted and doesn't have 4+ inches of protection vs small arms/artillery. Additionally the armor-infantry ratio means there just plain aren't that many infantry to work with each tank.

Us Jarheads (USMC) view tanks as an infantry support asset, and don't have near as many to start with. So the ratio of infantry to armor is much higher and the armor tends to "hang back" with, and often behind, the infantry screen until called forward to deal with something.

The environment your trained to operate in and basic mindset (infantry supports armor or armor supports infantry) is important.

Then you have a lot of military forces that really don't train much in combined arms so have significant difficulties in the first place.

[shahadi]

The footage posted by DRG is quite remarkable in that we may glimpse at how the Syrians are using their tanks in certain urban environments as assault guns, hitting any possible opposing force's firing position. Unlike American crews where roof top sniper teams over watch advancing armor, the Syrians blast away at any suspected firing position. The Israelis use massed artillery fires, destroying structures in the path of advancing infantry followed by armor making it easier for the infantry to locate, identify and kill ATGM teams. Here in these few videos, we have Syrians using tanks similar to how Israelis use artillery fires (to destroy firing positions) to clear path for infantry to dismount and enter the fight.

The Syrian tactic is faster than sniper over watch teams, less destructive while requiring less coordination with artillery, than the Israelis approach, and at the least, is a best match given apparent Syrian capabilities.

The T-72 tank crews are divided between the Defense Companies and the 4th Armor Division; both of these organizations are near exclusively populated by the regime’s Alawite minority, the sect of Bashar al-Assad, confirming loyalty throughout the ranks from officer to enlisted. Further, it is erroneous to say the tank crews in these videos demonstrate poor urban or weak combined arms tactics, when in fact, these two units are extensively Soviet trained in combined arms doctrine and routinely trained with Russian forces in joint exercises (before the civil war.) They know what they are doing, although through our lenses, it may not appear to be the case.

------