Proposed Modding Cost Guidelines

[Wauthan]

Hmmm... good thinking. I've deviced my own little system but it would be interesting if we could get a concensus to make modding easier.

Awe could be compared to a "personal forcefield". It doesn't protect the unit against spells or missiles but lets it own melee if it is high enough. This should cost less than fear initially but the increase should be steeper. Awe 20 would make the unit unbeatable in melee.
Cost should be multiplied if the unit also has a passive damage aura.
Eg: Had a GoR hydra with awe +6. This thing could wipe out armies all on its own because of the toxic fumes surrounding it.

Mounted should cost 15 gold and add 10 to action points.

[Teraswaerto]

Originally posted by Wauthan:

Awe 20 would make the unit unbeatable in melee.

Mindless units don't care about awe.

[ February 29, 2004, 16:54: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ]

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Uh-Nu-Buh:


Gold based on Skills (hp, st, etc.)
==================================
7-9 pnts skill = 0.5X cost (weak human)
10-12 pnts skill = 1X cost (avge human, weak monster)
13-15 pnts skill = 1.5X cost (elite human, average monster)
16-19 pnts skill = 2X cost (super elite human, above average monster)
20-29 pnts skill = 4X cost (super man, elite monster)
30-40 pnts skill = 6X cost (elite monster nobility)
41+ = 8X cost (elite monster royalty)
==================================

Hmmm. I think these are a bit extreme. 30+ values do not compare to normal values. 29 attack / defense / morale versus normal humans would never break, always hit, and be hit about .001% of the time. A 29/29/29 human (costing 40 gold, by your guidelines) could wipe out 100 normal soldiers without a scratch.

10-12 points are not "normal" for humans; Dominions humans have 10 base stats, and are typically +1 gold per point in excess (for small values). For example, Tien Chi Imperial Spearmen get +2 morale and +1 defense for +3 gold. That might be a little overpriced.

Anyway, stat bonuses have rapidly increasing value and should be priced exponentially, or similarly. For example, if a unit has all stats 10 except defense, it might be fair to price it like this:

code:

---

Defense: 10   11   12   13   14   15   16   17   18

Gold:    10   10.5 11.5 13   16   18.5 21.5 25   29

---

...or at an even steeper rate (what I showed above is linear, not geometric). Of course, attack is not nearly as valuable. But charging 40 gold for a "superman" unit with 29 HP, 29 attack, 29 defense, 29 morale, 29 strength, 29 MR...

Um.

I humbly suggest you try out such a unit in the combat sim, notice that it can utterly destroy all other units in the game (including all the Gods, greater blood summons, and Doom Horrors), and then maybe reconsider the 40 gold cost=)

Unless I'm misinterpreting what .5x / 1x / 2x / 4x mean?

[ February 29, 2004, 17:22: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

Saber, here's my example of how to use the tables. You'll find that it is more in line with reality than how you were reading the tables.

New Unit Example--The fabled Steel Battalion. An incredibly elite Super Heavy Infantry, full of weight lifting 7 foot tall supermen who push the envelope of humanity. Here are this proud group's stats:
hp 18
st 18
att 18
def 18
mor 18
mr 18
pre 10
arm 26
dge 20

This looks like standard stats for the people who used to bring pre-rolled characters and try to get into my DnD games. Anyways, let's add Conan here up and estimate the unit cost.
10gold +8stX2 +8hpX2 +8attX2 +8defX2 +8morX2 +8mrX2 = 106gold
10res +16armorX2 +17dgeX2 = 76res


Saber, your example of a 29/29/29 human would be VERY expensive. Let's call this Ubermensch the Sabre Infantry:

hp 29
st 29
att 29
def 18
mor 18
mr 18
pre 10
arm 26
dge 20

10gold +19stX4 +19hpX4 +19attX4 +8defX2 +8morX2 +8mrX2 = 10+76+76+76+16+16+16 = 286gold
10res +16armorX2 +17dgeX2 = 76res

The Sabre Infantry. Be All That You Can Be! ;-)

286 Gold is not alot for a unit with those Stats. Look at the Neifel Jarl.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Uh-Nu-Buh:
Saber, here's my example of how to use the tables. You'll find that it is more in line with reality than how you were reading the tables.

Ok, I see. The multiplier is for each incremental improvement... I was misinterpreting it before.

Incidentally, some stats are more valuable than others. Increasing from 20 to 30 strength: Not very valuable. 20 to 30 attack: Not very valuable. 20 to 30 HP: A bit valuable. 20 to 30 defense: Super valuable. 20 to 30 natural protection: Insane.

[ February 29, 2004, 21:26: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

Originally posted by Zen:
286 Gold is not alot for a unit with those Stats. Look at the Neifel Jarl.

The Niefel Jarl is a commander, a mage, and sacred. According to the guidelines as put down so far, if the Saber Infantry became the Saber Jarl, he would cost:

286 + 270 = 556 X 1.5 = 834 gold

Pretty much in line. Maybe too expensive.

[Wauthan]

I agree with Saber Cherry. The stats need to be weighted differently. But most protection and defence scores comes from armor and shields so these should not be represented in gold cost, which I feel represent the training of the unit.

Strength oughto be pretty cheap but needs common sence. A human will not be pushing 15+ regardless of training. High strength scores should only be allowed on large or exotic units that should by default have larger goldcost to represent their rarity.

Defence and Attack is fleetness of foot, agility, battle tactics as well as intimidation and skill with weapons and shield. This could well follow the guidelines suggested. Scores above 15 should increase exponentially in cost.

Protection should only be used with those units that would not be using armour, barding or shields. Dragon scales are legendary in myths and apparently they offer about as much protection as full plate armour. This should be somewhat expensive but since "natural protection" and armor values average it's no game breaker.

Hitpoints are no big deal either, since afflictions causes balance.

All in all its really up to the modder to justify the presence of units with scores above 15 in anything. So perhaps guidelines for super elite values are not that important. It can be as expensive as a fortress but if there's no fun playing against a faction using it, it should be dropped from the mod.

What I'm really interested in is the pricetag on abilities, like say coldprotection, and equipment. Saber Cherry started a list of items but what I would like is a suggestion on how a crafted item converts in resources and gold when put on a unit. I was thinking about sticking Fireswords in the hands of some elite units in a planned "elemental wars" mod.

[Bossemanden]

Ok a quick and dirty proposal.

Cost of Items converted to gold an ressources:
Total cost in gems = X
Level of construction (1,2,4,6 or 8) = Y
C1,C2,Z1 and Z2 are constants
Gold cost = G = C1*X^Z1
Ressource cost = R = C2*Y^Z2

Edit: Artifacts should probably not be included. Hence possible values for Y are {1,2,4,6}

[ March 01, 2004, 15:03: Message edited by: Bossemanden ]

[Wauthan]

I was sort of thinking along the same line until I realised fire and earth gems are worth more since they can be transmuted into gold. And since all gems can be turned into Astral those items oughto be cheaper.

Also no unit, apart from summoned that is, should be given items with a blood magic ingredient. While you don't get any of the items special abilities, if they are not added that is, it doesn't make sense that gold and resource cost lets you skip the unrest of a bloodhunt.