upkeep

[NTJedi]

[quote]Originally posted by NTJedi:

Draconians can be summoned individually and for ZERO gems... by the leader of the Draconians.

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

Yes, and to get that leader you need to summon the whole pack first. Exactly what I said.

The point here is the ZERO gems and no upkeep... somehow you missed that. LOL

Why have a Troll King spend an earth gem every turn for a new Troll which has 4 upkeep.... when a Draconian leader can get a new Draconian for free which has ZERO upkeep.

The point here is that pound per pound the Draconians don't have an upkeep and don't have a gem cost for each new individual summon.

4 upkeep is not much for small maps... but for the XL maps I play the 4 upkeep for the armies I need are murder.

Nonsense. Army sizes tend to scale proportionnally to empires sizes, and thus your upkeep tend to scale proportionally to your income. If you have problems on large maps, it's either due to your inefficiency in dealing with large empires, or to your own decision to sacrifice efficiency to cut the micromanagement down. Anyway it's certainly not due to a design flaw in the game.

Wrong... upkeep does not scale proportionally to ones own income. Income and upkeep can vary depending on the nation being played and the players style of playing.
Also I never said it was a design flaw.

[ July 14, 2004, 22:33: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
They can be summoned individually, with 0 upkeep, at one magic site.

Oh damn. Sure you're lucky enough to find this UNIQUE site just next to your capital in every game you play?

Heh. So - because Water magic sucks so bad, and there are so few other decent uses for water gems, the sea trolls are fine as is?

Heh. So - because everything that's rare is expensive, and cheap horses are rare, thus cheap horses must be expensive?

quote:

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(3) (...) I'd reply I'll always get more punch from 100 undead + 20 Sea Trolls than from 100 undead alone.

Sheesh. And 100 undead + 20 draconians has a lot more punch than 100 undead alone, as the draconians attack the commanders in the rear. 100 undead + 20 vine men has a lot more punch, 100 undead + 20 bog beasts, etc, etc. Your point is?

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My point was in the part you conveniently snipped. Look for the words 'amphibian' and 'need not eat', maybe that'll give you a clue. Draconians had none of these abilities Last time I checked.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
So if you lack air gems but have 180 earth you'll prefer to alchemize them to 90 astral then to 45 air so you can summon Draconians for free?

No, for most nations I'd summon a single troll king's court to get the higher level earth mage, then spend all the rest of the earth gems on hammers, forging items, and summoning the construction based earth summons. I'd only bother with more trolls if I had most of my research completed, and was no longer purchasing any conventional units.

Nonsense. Army sizes tend to scale proportionnally to empires sizes, and thus your upkeep tend to scale proportionally to your income.

Every casting of the troll king's courts adds either 45 or 55 gold to your upkeep costs. That is an extremely large expense that is very hard to justify in many cases.

[Boron]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

quote:

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4 upkeep is not much for small maps... but for the XL maps I play the 4 upkeep for the armies I need are murder.

Nonsense. Army sizes tend to scale proportionnally to empires sizes, and thus your upkeep tend to scale proportionally to your income. If you have problems on large maps, it's either due to your inefficiency in dealing with large empires, or to your own decision to sacrifice efficiency to cut the micromanagement down. Anyway it's certainly not due to a design flaw in the game.

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the bigger the map the more likely it is that your income drops in the long run due to global enchantments like utterdark. then with common events most likely many events happened which killed population of you and so on .
the main problem with big maps is that you can cast summon trolls e.g. 5 - 10 times but then you will be at your upkeeplimit and you have much less flexibility than anyone who has summons which need no upkeep . they can spend the money on castles , pd , additional mages , whatever they like .

i still don't see what makes trolls / sea trolls so special compared to all other magic summons that they are the only ones who need horrible upkeep .

especially for water summons this is really not good because they can't rely heavily on the trolls . so in the long run building clams is most likely always better than summoning the trolls . the upkeep is really prohibitive for them . compared to national troops you still get quite much for your upkeep . 3,33 / 4 for sea / earth troll means that they would cost 50 / 60 gold so it is really hard to find national troops of this cost that kill a troll but that's not the point . every nation that doesn't need trolls / sea trolls but can summon death / nature ... creatures has this creatures + troops / mages worth 60 upkeep and so they always win against the trolls .
i think atlantis would be much more played if the sea trolls would cost no upkeep but loose their ability to get 1 watergem / turn .

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by NTJedi:
The point here is the ZERO gems and no upkeep... somehow you missed that. LOL

Something that YOU missed is we were talking about Sea Trolls (not regular Trolls) when you jumped in. So much for the ZERO gems, since Sea Kings generate the gem they need to summon Sea Trolls. And one minus one equals ...?

About the upkeep I agree there's some, but my opinion is, and always has been, that it's negligible.

The point here is that pound per pound the Draconians don't have an upkeep and don't have a gem cost for each new individual summon.

Highly debatable. The initial 45 gems investment is still there. If you have the leader summon for 30 turns, you'll get 45 Draconians for a 45 gems investment. 1 gem/Draconian may be cheap, but it's not zero.

Wrong... upkeep does not scale proportionally to ones own income. Income and upkeep can vary depending on the nation being played and the players style of playing.

I can't understand where you're heading here. Obviously I meant 'other things being equal' here. Same player, conditions, etc. except for the map size - which BTW was your own point, not mine.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

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Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
So if you lack air gems but have 180 earth you'll prefer to alchemize them to 90 astral then to 45 air so you can summon Draconians for free?

No, for most nations I'd summon a single troll king's court to get the higher level earth mage, then spend all the rest of the earth gems on hammers, forging items, and summoning the construction based earth summons. I'd only bother with more trolls if I had most of my research completed, and was no longer purchasing any conventional units.

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Fine - that's what I'd do too, at least 90% of the time. Anyway this question wasn't for you.

quote:

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Nonsense. Army sizes tend to scale proportionnally to empires sizes, and thus your upkeep tend to scale proportionally to your income.

Every casting of the troll king's courts adds either 45 or 55 gold to your upkeep costs. That is an extremely large expense that is very hard to justify in many cases.

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And how does this relate to the paragraph you quoted? The point was on a 3 x bigger map, with a (likely) 3 x bigger empire, and thus a (likely) 3 x bigger income, having to pay the upkeep of 3 x more Trolls should NOT be 3 x more painful, since it eats up the same percentage of your income.

[ July 14, 2004, 23:31: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
Something that YOU missed is we were talking about Sea Trolls (not regular Trolls) when you jumped in.

Boron's quote was referring to BOTH sea trolls and regular trolls posted July 14, 2004 19:32 where you quote Boron.
As far as Sea Trolls I consider them worthwhile since they are able to enter the sea and the king generates water gems. Regular trolls are not.

About the upkeep I agree there's some, but my opinion is, and always has been, that it's negligible.

4 upkeep per troll is nothing to sweep under a rug and ignore. During a game I have acquired as many as 110 living statues... if I spent those gems on trolls the upkeep would cost me the ability to build several temples and/or hire units. Unless I am losing where they are killed quickly. lol

you'll get 45 Draconians for a 45 gems investment. 1 gem/Draconian may be cheap, but it's not zero.

The gold upkeep is zero... not true for trolls. Thus a successful large army of trolls which stays alive 30 turns gets very very expensive. Not true with Draconians or Living Statues.

[qb]Wrong... upkeep does not scale proportionally to ones own income. Income and upkeep can vary depending on the nation being played and the players style of playing.

I can't understand where you're heading here. Obviously I meant 'other things being equal' here. Same player, conditions, etc. except for the map size - which BTW was your own point, not mine.

Upkeep does not scale proportionally to ones own income for some players. I've witnessed strategies where allied players(hotseat) would never exceed X amount of gold upkeep... basically flat line. Any additional gold income would be spent on temples, province defense, forts and anything without upkeep... hope that clears it up.

[ July 15, 2004, 00:33: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[Norfleet]

I think the bottom line of this: Sea Kings Good. Trolls bad. As with anything that sucks up gold in upkeep at a rate greater than they are actually worth, the actual trolls are a Bad Thing as opposed to a good thing. The moral here: Always summon your Sea Trolls close to the front line, and abuse them as harshly as possible so that they die, preferrably in a gainful manner that doesn't simultaneously kill the Sea King, who is good.

[NTJedi]

I agree with Norfleet

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Boron:
the bigger the map the more likely it is that your income drops in the long run due to global enchantments like utterdark. then with common events most likely many events happened which killed population of you and so on .

I don't know how big is big for you, anyway I've seen that phenomenon happen on maps of all sizes, except the tiniest (the likes of Urgaia).

the main problem with big maps is that you can cast summon trolls e.g. 5 - 10 times but then you will be at your upkeeplimit and you have much less flexibility than anyone who has summons which need no upkeep . they can spend the money on castles , pd , additional mages , whatever they like .

(Hmmm, additional mages with no upkeep, you mean?)

There's some logic in what you say, but you're missing a very important point: Trolls are (reasonably) powerful mid-level summons. The upkeep-free summons you can get at the time Trolls become available either aren't as powerful, or as durable, or as easily available (eg, Draconians may not be available because you need your air gems for other things - a common case). Sure you can wait for upkeep-free summons which are as powerful as Trolls or better, but in the meantime the players who chose to invest in Trolls while you didn't will get an edge over you. And if that edge translates in extra provinces, sites, income, whatever, that more than covers the initial cost and upkeep of these Trolls (IOW, if these Trolls are paying for themselves), then you're already at a disadvantage you may never negate.

i still don't see what makes trolls / sea trolls so special compared to all other magic summons that they are the only ones who need horrible upkeep .

Lots of things I enumerated several times (to no avail it seems), so I'll only list the most important points.

They're available early, need only a level 3 mage to summon, and are flexible in their summoning, allowing you to save on gems or on mage time, depending on your priorities.

They're very resilient to virtually every form of attack, due to the combination of regen, high HPs, and MR.

They don't eat and are strong, and that make them extremely well suited to sieges, particularly in remote or desolate areas where supplies are a problem. For the same reason they're also great for castle defense (actually my main use for Trolls is as fortress crackers - even if they don't participate in the final showdown, instead I often prefer to relocate them to the next enemy fortress while my other troops storm the place).

Sea Trolls are OFC natural amphibians and great for sieging underwater fortresses.

so in the long run building clams is most likely always better than summoning the trolls.

It's surely better than summoning Trolls you'll leave idling in your castle. Otherwise a dozen clams won't save you when your neighbour's Trolls will knock at your door.

the upkeep is really prohibitive for them .

Not for them, not for me. It's only prohibitive for you.

every nation that doesn't need trolls / sea trolls but can summon death / nature ... creatures has this creatures + troops / mages worth 60 upkeep and so they always win against the trolls .

Win what? A virtual war of relative costs? It has little meaning on the battlefield. Whoever has the strongest army wins (usually). If reinforcing my army means summonning Trolls, I sure wouldn't pass on it.

i think atlantis would be much more played if the sea trolls would cost no upkeep but loose their ability to get 1 watergem / turn .

Well, I don't like Atlantis much, but certainly not for that reason.