"Gamey" tactics like "Rock, none" races

[1FSTCAT]

Well, to get back to the original topic...



I guess I was in a bad mood Last night. I also hadn't considered how a Rock/None race would deal with getting the Gas/None and Ice/None techs. I can see where that's their counter-balance, now. They give a good start, but beyond that...

Thanks for the perspectives, guys. I see it in a totally different light, now.

--Ed

[capnq]

Religious isn't nearly as big an advantage when more than one player takes it, either. In one of my PBW games, we've got 3 Religious races and 1 Ancient race, out of 5 players. I remember another PBW game where the first three empires I met lived on Gas Giants.

Things go in and out of fashion, as opponents find countermeasures, and people get tired of playing the same race every game.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Arkcon:

quote:

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Originally posted by PvK:
There is no reasonable explanation why moons should multiply the training rate. PvK

To avoid arguments, I don’t do this anymore. However, I do see it as plausible from a role-play point of view. Either it's non-stop intensive training, or the crew is split up into Groups so they all get a crack at the training. The end result is more rapid training -- not better training.

Training facilities is a technology a militaristic race would love. If Klingon's actually existed, I'm sure there'd be training facilities on every moon. Non-stop training, yeah.

[Insert you favorite Kligonese statement here]

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Well, except that there is no reason why having a moon would help training at all. Being able to build more training facilities in one spot is one thing, but that's not allowed... unless you have a moon. Makes zero sense. Also, since moons are also (unrealistically) rare, it also nonsensically limits the systems where this nonsensical technique can be done. It also can't be done until the race has enough colonization tech to colonize both the planet and the moon in a particular sector. None of that has any sensible explanation. I don't object to the idea that you could build more extensive training facilities in one place and get better training, but the restrictions on where this can or can't be done make zero sense, and also introduce a silly reason for trying to get a moon (or better, two moons) and its planet colonized together. It just doesn't make any sense.

PvK

[PvK]

Originally posted by geoschmo:

quote:

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Originally posted by PvK:
As for the talisman, it's a massive advantage, only balanced if the other players in the game realize it and organize to prevent it from ruling the quadrant before it's too late.

Balderdash. If the tailsman were such a tremendous advantage, how come out of 6 original tailsman races in Furball 3, only 1 is still a viable empire and he is in trouble? And that was a ten planet high tech start. If ever a game was tailor made for the supremacy of the tailsman this was it. And they have performed dismally. No offense intended to the players that chose it. Just calling it as I see it. Come up with all your reasons and explanations, but in practice they just don't hold up.

Geoschmo

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Probably because the players didn't manage to develop it or exploit it. As I think I said, it's only a huge advantage once it gets to that point. But at that point, it is a huge advantage. Especially in an unmodded game in the late-tech stage, where most people have access to the same things, and hitting at long range is fairly difficult, except for talisman players, who hit all the time. The players have to be skilled enough to realize how to take advantage of it well, which isn't all that hard, and they do have to surivive to that point. But once there, it's a massive advantage. Not always insurmountable. The real counter, as I and others have written before, is coalitions against them. Diplomacy is often the most powerful part of the game, perhaps second to skill vs. newbie-ism.

PvK

[geoschmo]

You are correct Pvk, but you are proving my point. It's the skill of the player that makes the difference, not the uber weapon or tactic. I don't agree it's unbalenced. I used to, but after some success against it recently I am no longer convinced.

I am not saying it's not a nice thing to be able to hit every time, of course it is. I am simply saying it's not the ultimate weapon. If it were then a less skilled player could use it and be victorious.

As far as Furball 3 is concerned though, it was a high tech start and six of the twelve races were religious races. Those two factors should have compensated for the two biggest weaknesses of the tailsman. It's cost to research and the tendancy for players to gang up on religious races. But despite this the Religious races are all but dead.

In the DimX2 game I faced an opponent who was highly skilled and used the Tailsman to it's utmost potential. For a short time he was effectivly holding off a four empire coalition. But I believe Mark to be a highly skilled player and believe he would have done very well in the game even if he had chosen another racial trait.

Geoschmo

[ December 21, 2002, 21:18: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Fyron]

I don't like the Talisman because I don't think anything should be 100% guaranteed. If it had isntead something like a +50% to hit bonus (stacks with Combat Sensors), it would be much better for gameplay.

[spoon]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
To me actual proof is worth a lot more than any theory or scads of charts and formula. If PPB, tailsman, or multiple training facilities were the nirvana they all were claimed by various people, then everybody would be doing them, or at least everybody that won games would be doing them. And I can tell you from experience everybody doesn't do them, and those that do them don't always win.

Charts and formulae are the proof. Actual gameplay results are anecdotal, at best. I agree with you that there is no Guaranteed 100% Formula for Success in SE4. However, there do exist things that can give you an edge. It's like blackjack - counting cards can give you the long-term edge to beat the house, but you are still going to lose some hands and some money in the short-term.

- Having three ship-training facilities on a sector is better than having only one.
- Using PPBs in the midgame is better than using anything else.
Having 125% defense + bezerker will make you unbeatable against people unaware of how combat works.
- Having 110% Maint Reduction is a huge advantage over people who don't realize how broken Maint Reduction is.

-spoon