new SEIV patch !!

[Q]

You are all right about the AI problem with the master computer after the new patch. But IMHO the solution is quite simple: make the cost of a master computer equal or less than a bridge plus one life support plus one crew quarter and the size equal or less than 30kT. Then it will not harm the AI to use the MC even for the smallest ships.
In my personal mod I went a step further and made the master computer technology a racial technology and this works very well.

[Q]

Originally posted by Rexxx:
Still haven't tested the new patch yet but I read about some very bad news.

I would say we've got a new ultimate weapon. Against those poor AI races who like robotoid factories and conquering my planets I would design a large weapon platform. Large WPs with combat sensors, 5 CV III and 6 PDCs should do the trick. This mounted CV has a range of 12, it skips shield and armor. Extremely efficient.
Well, an attacking fleet of direct fire ships will be getting in trouble. I would call that the renaissance of the plasma missile.
Add to this the talisman and direct fire ships become useless for planetary attacks. My next AI will be religious (as a bonus this trait allows access to resorce boosting facilities without the vulnerability against CVs). As I said very bad news...

Please, please tell me that this scenario is flawed.

I believe it is flawed.
Look everything you describe was already possible before the new patch against human players who used master computers. Did that prevent the use of master computers??
You slow down ships by destroying their master computer, but they will still be able to fire and therefore destroy your colony if you have only the weapon platforms you describe. Then it is easy to repair the master computer after the combat if you have a repair ship in your fleet. And advanced AI races have ships with repair components in their fleets.
Therefore I don't think the computer virus has become an ultimate weapon.
But you point to a problem I criticized when the first news about this patch came out: if you start "balancing" the game by hard coded changes you might get more new problems than you solve.

[ January 28, 2003, 10:48: Message edited by: Q ]

[Rexxx]

Originally posted by Q:
I believe it is flawed.
Look everything you describe was already possible before the new patch against human players who used master computers. Did that prevent the use of master computers??
You slow down ships by destroying their master computer, but they will still be able to fire and therefore destroy your colony if you have only the weapon platforms you describe. Then it is easy to repair the master computer after the combat if you have a repair ship in your fleet. And advanced AI races have ships with repair components in their fleets.
Therefore I don't think the computer virus has become an ultimate weapon.
But you point to a problem I criticized when the first news about this patch came out: if you start "balancing" the game by hard coded changes you might get more new problems than you solve.[/QB]

Well, I don't give up so easily.

My point was that a human player can easily exploit this new "Yet Another Vulnerability in the AI". Add lots of fighters to the WPs described above and the attacking fleet will get serious troubles.
You're right, advanced AIs use repair ships. However, so far I found no way to divide these ships evenly between my AI-fleets or to make sure that each fleet gets at least one. The only workaround I know of is to build "enough" of them and hope for the best. Another AI-problem which doesn't exist for the human player.

[Nodachi]

I remember arguing about this before my, ahem, absense.

The changes made so that an AS can no longer effect a ship with a damaged MC make perfect logical sense because a ship with an MC has no crew to convert. However, if a ship's MC is destroyed then that ship should be dead in the water instead of being able to continue to fight with a movement penalty.

The change so that AI's will always use the MC if they've researched it is way too heavy-handed. We're going to see some odd, and very expensive, AI ship designs.

It looks to me that the AI in general just got handicapped and psychic AI's just got screwed.

Other than those issues the patch seems great. (I don't want to be totally negative! )

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Nodachi:
The changes made so that an AS can no longer effect a ship with a damaged MC make perfect logical sense because a ship with an MC has no crew to convert. However, if a ship's MC is destroyed then that ship should be dead in the water instead of being able to continue to fight with a movement penalty.
Can't disagree with this from a realism perspective. However since ships with destroyed B/CQ/LS are allowed to fight and move with a penalty, then ships with a destroyed MC should be able to as well. No?

It looks to me that the AI in general just got handicapped and psychic AI's just got screwed. The AI is handicapped, but I don't agree it's any worse then before, just different. We gave them their right arm back but we took their left.

Psychics maybe got screwed a bit, but the general consensus seemed to be before that Psychic was too powerful anyway.

Heavy handed I think is a good term for this change. I think a change was needed. I would have prefered something else, but I think this is better than what it was before. But hopefully in the next patch he will tweak it a bit more. The more people talk about it and make suggestions the better though because then we can get a better idea of what should be proposed to Malfador.

Geoschmo

[ January 28, 2003, 13:38: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[LGM]

Originally posted by Q:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rexxx:
Still haven't tested the new patch yet but I read about some very bad news.

I would say we've got a new ultimate weapon. Against those poor AI races who like robotoid factories and conquering my planets I would design a large weapon platform. Large WPs with combat sensors, 5 CV III and 6 PDCs should do the trick. This mounted CV has a range of 12, it skips shield and armor. Extremely efficient.
Well, an attacking fleet of direct fire ships will be getting in trouble. I would call that the renaissance of the plasma missile.
Add to this the talisman and direct fire ships become useless for planetary attacks. My next AI will be religious (as a bonus this trait allows access to resorce boosting facilities without the vulnerability against CVs). As I said very bad news...

Please, please tell me that this scenario is flawed.

I believe it is flawed.
Look everything you describe was already possible before the new patch against human players who used master computers. Did that prevent the use of master computers??
You slow down ships by destroying their master computer, but they will still be able to fire and therefore destroy your colony if you have only the weapon platforms you describe. Then it is easy to repair the master computer after the combat if you have a repair ship in your fleet. And advanced AI races have ships with repair components in their fleets.
Therefore I don't think the computer virus has become an ultimate weapon.
But you point to a problem I criticized when the first news about this patch came out: if you start "balancing" the game by hard coded changes you might get more new problems than you solve.

---

If the attacking ships have a Bridge (or Auxillary Control), they should still get 1/2 movemement after the CV takes out the master computer.

[Krsqk]

Any feedback about my Prefer/Allow/Disallow idea? If it sounds reasonable, especially to the AI modders out there, I'd like to send it to Aaron. It seems a simple enough means to permit AI use of MCs but yet prevent all-out usage. And it gives one more thing to mod.