Space Combat - Observations and Questions (Aaron/Richard take note)

DirectorTsaarx · #1 January 30th, 2001, 10:35 PM

rdouglass: let me clarify. I meant that if the AI combat style improves (not just ship design, etc.) to the point where it can hold its own against a player using tactical combat, players could rely more on strategic combat for themselves. There are times when we all have to play in tactical, because the computer doesn't make the same decisions we would and loses even with superior firepower. My personal pet peeves are leaving a carrier at the far side of a battle while it launches fighters for five or six combat turns. This strings the fighters out too much, giving PD cannon a better chance to take them out; if the carrier kept moving with the already-launched fighters, the Last fighters launched wouldn't be so far behind and the attack density is better. My other favorite is when my balanced missile ship/beam weapon fleet decides to blindly follow the leader, so I either end up with missile ships at beam weapon range or beam weapon ships at missile range (that Last one really cheesed me off when attacking a planet once - all my ships stayed at range 12 because the missile ship had been designated leader; not a single beam weapon ship had a chance to fire, and the missiles weren't enough to destroy the colony, so I had to attack again).

Now, I agree that when using strategic combat in fleet vs. fleet situations, the fleet with better ships/better formation/better choice of "strategy" SHOULD win. And this should hold true no matter how good or how bad the AI is at strategic combat, since it all uses the same strategy file. HOWEVER, I have seen superior fleets take unnecessary losses because of silly mistakes; other than the ones I've already mentioned, I've also watched my ships fire on an enemy ship loaded with planetary napalm (obviously, there was no planet in the sector, otherwise I'd WANT to get rid of the planetary assault ship), just because it appeared to be the "heaviest armed" or "biggest" ship (not certain which trigger it was) and left the slightly smaller ship loaded with Graviton Hellbore V's alone long enough for it to do damage. In tactical, I would have left the planetary napalm ship alone (since it couldn't do any damage to my ships) and focused on the Hellbore ship. When the computer is smart enough to do this for me, I'll be much more likely to use strategic combat. Even if it means the AI is better at strategic combat too. Heck, given the fact that I occasionally miscalculate range or lose track of a fighter group or two, the computer may even end up doing a BETTER job, since it never miscalculates or loses track of a ship just because it's outside the "combat window". It would also be nice if "Don't Get Hurt" wasn't interpreted to mean "run to the nearest corner and wait for the enemy to surround you and beat you into flaming pieces of debris". Again, even if meant I had to chase the AI's colony ships all over the map too.

Oh - I've also had my OWN planetary napalm ship destroyed in fleet engagements because it didn't want to break formation and hide in a corner with the supply ship. At least the supply ship is allowed to break formation and hide...

rdouglass · #2 January 30th, 2001, 10:47 PM

DirectorTsaarx, That definitely clarifies the issue and I agree with your arguments completely. I too experience the same problems with S Combat and wish that was improved significantly. However, I currently use strategic combat almost all the time since I can generally "whoopa$$" on the Ai in tactical 'cause the AI is weak (and all the reasons you mentioned below). It makes for more challenging games and requires more though with the ship design, formation, etc.

Good post and good topic!!!

DirectorTsaarx · #3 January 30th, 2001, 10:54 PM

Yeah, at the moment I'm not worried about making the game more challenging - each of the top three empires have TWICE my score, and have stayed that way for the Last 50-100 turns. Of course, I've only met one of those three races, and even though we've been at war for the Last 50 turns, neither of us had bothered the other beyond the occasional skirmish in an unclaimed system. Now that I've finally eradicated my other major opponent, though, I expect things will change...

God Emperor · #4 January 31st, 2001, 12:38 AM

Thanks guys. Tampa_Gamer, I'll check out the mod pack but what threads are you referring too? I have read most but there are a lot posted now....

Also, just to clarify, I was not advocating arming the computer only with ships equipped with missiles and point defence, just that they have separate classes so that each type of ship (missile-PD, beam-PD) can operate more effectively. I do take the point though that the lack of control over the ratio of the two types of ship may lead to problems in some circumstances....

Tampa_Gamer · #5 February 1st, 2001, 02:07 AM

God Emporer-

The threads should be within the Last month. Do a "search" (upper right hand corner of page) and select this forum, within the Last month, with search terms of "ship" "design" and "ratio" - that should bring up some message threads with some good info.

thecyclemania · #6 January 31st, 2001, 07:02 PM

This topic is very interesting, I have a question though :

Is there a file(s) that tells the AI what to do during strategic combat ?

I understand that the formation and strategy of the fleet will have an impact, but how do you evaluate (or guess) what the computer will do based on your design ?

For example, I read that if your fleet is using maximum range and your ship have direct fire/missile weapons, the fleet won't take advantage of its long range with missiles, it will move in to get within range of its direct fire. How am I supposed to know this ? What file dictactes this behavior ?

This is interesting because I recently was testing various design of ships with different weapons. The most successfull design had missiles weapons only and maximum range strategy. The moment you would add a direct fire, it wouldn't perform as good. I guess I know why now. But without this thread, I couldn't have guessed why ?

I'm tired of all this guessing...

thecyclemania

Daynarr · #7 January 31st, 2001, 10:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by thecyclemania:
Is there a file(s) that tells the AI what to do during strategic combat ?

The only file that does that is DefaultStrategies.txt located in 'DATA' folder. We (the moders) are hoping that this will change in next patch and that each individual race will have its own strategies file.

quote:
I understand that the formation and strategy of the fleet will have an impact, but how do you evaluate (or guess) what the computer will do based on your design ?

For example, I read that if your fleet is using maximum range and your ship have direct fire/missile weapons, the fleet won't take advantage of its long range with missiles, it will move in to get within range of its direct fire. How am I supposed to know this ? What file dictactes this behavior ?

This specific behavior is hard coded. It is defined by its movement strategy and we can't change them, just select them in DefaultStrategies.txt file.

quote:
This is interesting because I recently was testing various design of ships with different weapons. The most successfull design had missiles weapons only and maximum range strategy. The moment you would add a direct fire, it wouldn't perform as good. I guess I know why now. But without this thread, I couldn't have guessed why ?

I'm tired of all this guessing...

thecyclemania

We all learn by trial and error method. It is not easy, but it is the only way to go for now.