Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS

[oleg]

I looked again on the proposed game specifications (poor homeworld, no AI bonus) and I have some doubts that any AI will not go bankrupt.

IT is very difficult to make AI for Proportions.
In a normal game all planets are more or less equal. If you have 10 planets, you are about 10 times better off than a guy with just 1 planet. Accordingly, AI files use "planet per item" as a rule. There is a resonably well operating AI feedback loop - more planets you have, more resources you produce, more ships you can afford. Thus, a good written "normal" AI can operate in a wide variety of settings - 3 planet start - no problems, expand 3 times faster, have 3 times more ship. High AI bonus - fine ! more planets, more ships.

The Proportions' situation is completely different. Guy with 10 colonies + homeworld does not have 10 times more resources than the guy with one homeworld. With luck, it would be just 50% more ! Hence - "planet per item" is inoperable for Proportions' AI. All Proportions' AI construction_vehicles.txt work mainly by "must have" option. As a result, there is almost no feedback and Proportions' AI are very inflexible Change AI bonus to high - it still build almost the same number of ships. AI programmer must have some specific game set in mind up when tweaking AI. For example I target one homeworld, low bonus/non bonus set-up. AI should not overspend resources but must provide a challange with low-bonus. Obviously, medium/high bonuses are nice but in fact AI will underperform, it could be made much more frightening

Now, I do not know how it will work with poor/no-bonus start. You may have to reduce all "must have" numbers by third. Just keep in mind this dumbed down AI will be a pushover in normal games ! Alternatively, You may still use low AI bonus. I do not think AI will kill you giving its poor homeworld

[ March 07, 2003, 13:39: Message edited by: oleg ]

[JLS]

I looked again on the proposed game specifications (poor homeworld, no AI bonus) and I have some doubts that any AI will not go bankrupt

As would a Human player have a tough time of it; in Poor Home World Set up
~

It is very difficult to make AI for Proportions.

Agreed, as all Mods. SMAC, CTP, AOE etc.
~

In a normal game all planets are more or less equal. If you have 10 planets, you are about 10 times better off than a guy with just 1 planet. Accordingly, AI files use "planet per item" as a rule. There is a resonably well operating AI feedback loop - more planets you have, more resources you produce, more ships you can afford.

Allot depends what that AI’s priority is at that time; a planet is considered for colonization. Then the Planet_Types file and the Facility_Construction files of that AI race, as it relates to the AI’s personality of the designers intent.
Also there are times the AI has a predetermined colony type locked before the colony ship is even Built and before what planet is to be considered.
More planets: do relate to more ships in most cases, however I can guarantee you this, it does not always equate to more Resources as strongly as you may think. For the reasons above and the fact that one AI may have 4 moons, domed, breathable, etc; No designer can know exactly what the next game will offer to the AI.
But if you know your MAP related files well, for the MOD you are preparing the AI for, you can do the above average job for the average game start, and hope you have done, no more then average for that average game start in respects to the AI.
Then you have succeeded
I hope that made, some sense!
~

The Proportions' situation is completely different. Guy with 10 colonies + homeworld does not have 10 times more resources than the guy with one homeworld. With luck, it would be just 50% more !

Agreed, one way to look at this for example:
If in a brand new Human Multiplayer game start, I would not despair or dropout while playing Proportions; even if my Home System had no land able planets, no breathable planets even if the neighboring systems are sparse.
Because my Home World would be just as good as the other Human Player, and with that, I can and (have) grown strong enough to contend with the leaders even with the very poorest of starts.
~

Hence - "planet per item" is inoperable for Proportions' AI. All Proportions' AI construction_vehicles.txt work mainly by "must have" option. As a result, there is almost no feedback and Proportions' AI are very inflexible Change AI bonus to high - it still build almost the same number of ships.
AI programmer must have some specific game set in mind up when tweaking AI. For example I target one home world, low bonus/non bonus set-up. AI should not overspend resources but must provide a challange with low-bonus. Obviously, medium/high bonuses are nice but in fact AI will underperform, it could be made much more frightening

I think what you may want to consider is the bigger picture, when you Work the AI’s Files, you are also working on the MOD, so a post-release change with the AI’s files will/could change the Mods chemistry dramatically ….

Crystals
For example: If you add
Entry 5 Type := Colony (Gas)
Entry 5 Planet Per Item := 200
Entry 5 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 6 Type := Colony (Rock)
Entry 6 Planet Per Item := 180
Entry 6 Must Have At Least := 3
Entry 7 Type := Colony (Ice)
Entry 7 Planet Per Item := 160
Entry 7 Must Have At Least := 4
~
Crystals
To what was:
Entry 3 Type := Colonizer
Entry 3 Planet Per Item := 50
Entry 3 Must Have At Least := 2

The above now possible changes to your sets that you have made available for download looks harmless but will have a bigger impact then you think on Proportions 2.53 over all…

As a recommendation only. That you make patient little changes to a Post-Release AI and then test the effect on its Parent Released Mod thoroughly.
~

Now, I do not know how it will work with poor/no-bonus start. You may have to reduce all "must have" numbers by third. Just keep in mind this dumbed down AI will be a pushover in normal games ! Alternatively, You may still use low AI bonus. I do not think AI will kill you giving its poor homeworld

You can do the above average job for the average game start, and hope you have done, no more then average for that average game start, in respects to the AI. Then you have succeeded.
This way all changes from (default) may be Automatically addressed by the AI better

[ March 07, 2003, 18:45: Message edited by: JLS ]

[PsychoTechFreak]

The AI appears to have severe problems with "no WP connected" anyways. I will repeat another test with high bonus and 10 planets start but I guess it will not be much better:

-new Krill AI 5000pts, mining aptitude impressive
-no WP connected
-medium settings (I have dropped the idea of poor start), no bonus, 1 planet start

game date: 2827 (427 years later)
-TWO WPs have been opened, a WP opener ship is surfing through the systems just sucking up minerals (25K/turn), mineral resources zero, org+rad is filled completely.
-7 ships and a few sats, a medium breathable planet 2 sectors away from home is filled with megalopolies, the other planets are fairly developed with monoliths, megaplexes
-Researching for SM 8 (sphere world placement generator, mmh, maybe I should let it run for another while...)

With all of the other tests before, I have never seen AI opening more than 2 WPs yet.

Some thoughts about the rest of the game setup, although it will be boring if the AI will be that inactive:

-Guzzling supplies. I have created two additional racial tech entries without costs: supply usage +50% and supply usage +100% to get some experience with it. A first level colonizer with supply cargo I (6000) would have supplies for 25 sectors if supply guzzling (30%) and +100% is set. Funny, the restricted traits that are set for guzzlers do not work, I mean you can set what you want, e.g. power conservation and guzzling to get a reduction by 25% + an increase by 30% (makes not much sense, I know).

-I have found some objections against the mass increment, or "engines per move". If I would increase them too much, the long range weapons become too overpowered. And if the colonizer would e.g. just move 1 sector per move with 8 engines it would be no difference if it has supplies or not (because of the min. 1 emergency drive).

-Human players should do some self-restrictions, like: it is not allowed to build troops or colonizers in space. I still favor the idea to decrease organic output of SY components drastically and additional to that I would prefer higher organic costs of colony pods. It has to take some 10 years to build a colony with a SYS, so that colony ships would have to be launched from planets only and always. OTOH this would be bad for organic races, any ideas to circumvent that?

[PsychoTechFreak]

Ich werd' bekloppt

1st test results:

SE4 verursachte einen Fehler durch eine ungültige Seite
in Modul WINMM.DLL bei 015f:bfe18e6c.
Register:
EAX=00000000 CS=015f EIP=bfe18e6c EFLGS=00010206
EBX=83206118 SS=0167 ESP=01abfedc EBP=01abff0c
ECX=d43df5a0 DS=0167 ESI=83105ff8 FS=3a9f
EDX=8310501c ES=0167 EDI=832060ac GS=0000
Bytes bei CS:EIP:
c7 46 40 00 00 00 00 33 c0 5f 5e c2 08 00 53 56
Stapelwerte:
d480ef90 83105ff8 bfe18f45 83105ff8 832060ac bfe13522 bfe138e6 832060ac 000003bd 83105ff8 83106040 00000000 01abff6c bfe13544 832060ac 000003bd

[oleg]

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
Ich werd' bekloppt

1st test results:

SE4 verursachte einen Fehler durch eine ungültige Seite
in Modul WINMM.DLL bei 015f:bfe18e6c.
Register:
EAX=00000000 CS=015f EIP=bfe18e6c EFLGS=00010206
EBX=83206118 SS=0167 ESP=01abfedc EBP=01abff0c
ECX=d43df5a0 DS=0167 ESI=83105ff8 FS=3a9f
EDX=8310501c ES=0167 EDI=832060ac GS=0000
Bytes bei CS:EIP:
c7 46 40 00 00 00 00 33 c0 5f 5e c2 08 00 53 56
Stapelwerte:
d480ef90 83105ff8 bfe18f45 83105ff8 832060ac bfe13522 bfe138e6 832060ac 000003bd 83105ff8 83106040 00000000 01abff6c bfe13544 832060ac 000003bd

Duhh, I know. It happens every time Krill builds Ringworld

[PsychoTechFreak]

This looks better, 10 planet start, high bonus, low research costs, after 40 years tech tree is completely researched, resources in treasury is at maximum:

Cryslonite 1st place, 114 planets, 18 systems, good planet development, seen a planet with 3 arcologies, some monoliths, complexes. But a few weird things also: military installations and refining colonies build a lot of space port+resupply depots (e.g. 11 of them + a few distribution centers). Net min resources per turn: approx. 4 million, impossible to use up.

Krill 3rd place, 36 planets, 6 systems, planets with multiple distribution centers and SP+RD also, but they seem to avoid building cities, I do not see even one minor city.

Piundon Last place, 1 system, 1 WP has been opened to an asteroid belt. Planet development looks normal, 1 distribution center, 1 SP+RD, a megalopolis or metropolis, rest research complexes or similar.

UkraTal 2nd place, 9 systems, 48 planets. One or two planets with multiple depots, SP+RDs.

Now it's about to find a compromise where the AI does not run out of resources. For me it looks like the AI seems to stop almost everything when it is lacking resources, could it be true?

JLS' AICampaign looks interesting for another attempt of no-WP-connected. If the AIs even do their job under finite resources...

[JLS]

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:

JLS' AICampaign looks interesting for another attempt of no-WP-connected.
If the AIs even do their job under finite resources...

Are you testing AI campaign with DOS batch program. Are you testing it in Finite Mode?
You do know Finite play for the AI may not be represented well with this dos test, do to the fact that it is Balanced against a Human Players growth, as it relates with resource value depletion. (basically saying) not AI vs AI

Do you understand, how the AI is helped in Finite Play with the Finite MOD.
Finite Mod: has been in use for several months now with AIC and works very well for the AI against multiple Human players
Do you enjoy Finite play your self?

AI opens warp Points, creates planets from asteroids and constructs the desired colonizers etc; as well as a balanced research program in a not connected state. ~Already; at its release!

Important note for your test: Eee (science race) is the race currently specializing in many advanced Stellar task in AIC.

Thank you for your

Input.

If you have positive suggestions that can make AI Campaign better, we would greatly appreciate this. PsychoTechFreak

[ March 08, 2003, 18:51: Message edited by: JLS ]