[OT] Plato's Pub and Philosophical Society

[Phoenix-D]

"They claim the past, present and the future already exist in a kind of omni-present. It is just that our perspective is riveted on the present and gives us the experience of discovering the future."

There was a story written about this a while back..it's called "The story of your life"

Phoenix-D

[Andrés]

I don’t like your two options, either there is a supernatural universe that dominates ours or everything can be predicted....
A myriad of chemical and electrical reactions inside my skull insist that they generate my free will.

[Kamog]

If consciousness is produced by chemicals in the brain, then I wouldn't want to step into a Star Trek transporter. The moment my body is transformed into energy, I'll be dead. Then a duplicate clone of me with my exact memories and personality will be created at the destination. If you ask the new 'transported' me what happened, he will answer, "I stepped into the transported and now I find myself here." But the original me will be gone. What the real me would experience is stepping into the transporter, and into oblivion.

[Chronon]

Originally posted by Dogscoff:
Physics (ignoring quantum stuff) only allows one possible course of action. There is only one thing it can do, so you WILL go to bed or you WILL stay up.

I think it's the quantum stuff that is actually more important here. I don't think it's really possible to model the human brain using Newtonian physics or strict chemical processes (as Kamog has pointed out). There is randomness at the particle level (Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle) that cannot be predicted, and individual behavior is more like the sub-atomic particle (undetermined until it happens) than the motion of a large planet (very predictable). Also, I think the human mind is more a pattern of energy than strictly a chemical process. And this pattern is extremely complex and ever-changing. Add to it all the experiences I've had, and the learning I've done over the course of my life, and I don't think any predermined pattern could possibly account for everything that I've done.

I guess when it comes down to it, I believe we are more than just atom-bags. Perhaps just atom-bags plus energy, but that energy changes everything.

[Andrés]

Originally posted by Kamog:
If consciousness is produced by chemicals in the brain, then I wouldn't want to step into a Star Trek transporter. The moment my body is transformed into energy, I'll be dead. Then a duplicate clone of me with my exact memories and personality will be created at the destination. If you ask the new 'transported' me what happened, he will answer, "I stepped into the transported and now I find myself here." But the original me will be gone. What the real me would experience is stepping into the transporter, and into oblivion.

Yep trasporters anihiliate matter and create a duplicate somewhere else.
All trekkie characters are just copies of someone that died the first time he/she stepped into a transporter.

[Phoenix-D]

"Yep trasporters anihiliate matter and create a duplicate somewhere else.
All trekkie characters are just copies of someone that died the first time he/she stepped into a transporter."

Which means that the transporters are cloning devices. Simply leave out the "anihiliate" step.

Phoenix-D

[QuarianRex]

Originally posted by Chronon:
Also, I think the human mind is more a pattern of energy than strictly a chemical process. And this pattern is extremely complex and ever-changing.

Actually, the energy component is relatively short-term, about 20 min or so. It is during these 20 min that the looping energy pattern that will be memory acts as a template for the growth of dendritic spines on the neurons. Further stimulation (through dreams) can tead to growth of actual dendritic branches. Once the growth is finished you have yourself a new memory. Also, the more that memory is activated, the more the dendrites grow, and so the easier it is to access that memory.

Why do we structurally store memories? Because the energy Version is too damn fragile. One good bump and it's gone. That is why those who have had head trauma, electric shock, etc. have memory loss (usually of the preceeding 20 min).

Also, realize that energy is not transmitted within our brains through electrons. It is done through chemical ions (calcium, potassium, etc.). That is one of the reasons that computers are so fast. They operate through much faster electrons. Ironicly, this may be a strike against them ever becoming conscious. Cousciousness is very much a temporal event. In fact it only emerges with specific timing (20 msec) and complexity. Computers just might be too fast to gain cousciousness.

Thinking of the brain as some kind of crude anchor to which the energy of ou mind is tied is somewhat baseless. The structure of our brain is our mind.