[OT] Plato's Pub and Philosophical Society

[Suicide Junkie]

One way to put it is that consciousness is something that has to have the time to consider itself. If a complex task is performed too quickly it doesn't have enough time to displat the emergent property of consciousness. It may be that computers are finishing their tasks before they have a chance to be more than their task.

It sounds to me like the speed is not the problem here. Doing it faster means more time left over. The problem would be the narrow-mindedness, where the computer immediately stops thinking about all of the information it just processed in order to concentrate 100% on the next problem. Even if that problem is just watching the clock and waiting for input.

I'm not sure how you'd go about coding it to think about what it's doing... some set of parallel processors inspecting the incoming codes, perhaps an evolutionary programming system where it takes the majority decision of the currently top-ranked algorithms. (Ranked via various needs sensors, and perhaps a pair of "good bot"/"bad bot" social buttons on the front)

[QuarianRex]

Originally posted by dogscoff:
I think there is a line somewhere, albeit a very fuzzy one. It all comes down to the complexity of the brain. Chimps, elephants, dolphins, dogs, cats... these animals and others have a lot more 'human' qualities than are generally ascribed to them. For example, I think some animals definitely have a sense of humour and capacity for human-like emotion. I also thnk that complexity isn't enough- brain complexity is only potential intelligence/ free-will/ sentience/ self awareness/ whatever we're calling it. You need to fill that complexity with experience and memory for it to become self aware. For that reason I don't think all dogs are necessarily sentient- just the ones which have had sufficient mental stimulation and interaction to become self-aware. Likewise a new-born baby is not a sentient creature- it's just a potentially sentient one. (That doesn't mean I value babies any less than anyone else does, though.) At some point in their development they cross the barrier and become self-aware.

Here's an interesting note on self-awareness. Self-awareness seems to be tied to longevity. People who are mentally challenged tend to score very low on scales of self-awareness. This seems to be tied to a lack of fourth and fifth order dendritic arborization (dendrite branches growing on branches, growing on branches, growing on branches, etc.). The interesting correlate here is that they tend to have shortened lifespans, typically dying in their late forties or fifties.

This is interestingly mirrored in the case of feral children (those raised by animals). Ferals tend to show a similar deficiency in self-awareness and lack of fourth and fifth order dendrite growth, even after extensive cultural assimilation and education. And guess what? Ferals tend to die in their forties and fifties as well.

Interesting is it not?

[QuarianRex]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:

quote:

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One way to put it is that consciousness is something that has to have the time to consider itself. If a complex task is performed too quickly it doesn't have enough time to displat the emergent property of consciousness. It may be that computers are finishing their tasks before they have a chance to be more than their task.

It sounds to me like the speed is not the problem here. Doing it faster means more time left over. The problem would be the narrow-mindedness, where the computer immediately stops thinking about all of the information it just processed in order to concentrate 100% on the next problem. Even if that problem is just watching the clock and waiting for input.

I'm not sure how you'd go about coding it to think about what it's doing... some set of parallel processors inspecting the incoming codes, perhaps an evolutionary programming system where it takes the majority decision of the currently top-ranked algorithms. (Ranked via various needs sensors, and perhaps a pair of "good bot"/"bad bot" social buttons on the front)

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I think it has a lot to do with the way in which we each encode information (humans and computers). Humans don't just store information, we store our interpretation of information. That filtering process is part of what gives us cousciousness. Computers can just store data whole cloth, no need for interpretation. I don't think that finding a way for computers to mimic our encoding process is the answrer to creating an AI. For AI's an entirely different process would have to be discovered, one taking into account such fundamental differences.

As for the 20 msec time frame, we have processes within us that happen both faster and slower, but it is only those that occur at @20 msec that produce/are a part/define consciousness. If computers can achieve consciousness it will most likely be in a very different timeframe. Perhaps one in which we will be unable to recognize their awakening.

[Fyron]

and perhaps a pair of "good bot"/"bad bot" social buttons on the front)

ROFLOL!

[QuarianRex]

Has anyone ever read the hyperion series by Dan Simmons? It has an interesting account of the development of AI's, especially in the Last two books (Endymion and Rise of Endymion). It sees them basically as viruses that gained sentience through parasitic consumption of their bretheren. This had some interesting implications on their group psychology and in their interaction with humans.

[Krsqk]

I realize this is going back one topic, but if everything we think and do is pre-determined, there is no legality or illegality. No one is responsible for their actions, and thus, any attempt to punish or reward behavior is immoral. Of course, one could also say that people try to promote behavior similar to their own, and that such "persuasion" is also pre-determined. Then, one's own behaviors are not merely the result of which set of chemical signals in one's head is strongest, but which set of outside behaviors triggers the strongest response in oneself.

[Phoenix-D]

"No one is responsible for their actions, and thus, any attempt to punish or reward behavior is immoral"

If everything is pre-determined there is -no such thing- as immoral.

Phoenix-D