Philosophical Quandry: Piracy

PvK · #1 July 15th, 2003, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rdouglass:

quote:
Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
It does not matter what it says in the EULA. None of them are enforceable. Nothing it says in them matters.

How can you say this? What evidence do you have to prove this? AFAIK it always holds up 'cause you have a choice.

Please show me where there is evidence backing this piosition....

The burden of proof is for the enforcer. You can't prove that any particular person clicked the "I agree" button, opened the seal on an envelope, or otherwise agreed to a EULA without a signed contract. It's not a contract, it's a cheap trick. Maybe some lawyers can make it stick in some cases, but it's still a cheap trick.

Moreover, I agree with the sentiment that many contracts are invalid, according to my own moral standards, because frequently they are many pages of attrocious legalese and are given with the expectation that the signer will not sit there for an hour trying to understand it before signing it. Often such contracts are used by an entire industry, forcing people who need even a basic service (such as housing, or medical services) to accept, or be excuded from something they need. Perhaps not legally, but morally, I see this as unfair bullying by the people offering the contract. Some may say that it's the victims' responsibility, or society's responsibility, to object, and if they get hurt by this, it's the fault of their own complacency. There's some validity to that, but it's akin to saying that mugging victims deserve what they get for not being properly armed or staying home. The system could be changed to make things better for everyone, but again, the people who care about it the most and have the most attention, knowledge, money and power to bear on the problem, are those who stand to gain by continuing to exploit the status quo and perpetuating it as long as possible.

PvK

Fyron · #2 July 15th, 2003, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rdouglass:

quote:
Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
It does not matter what it says in the EULA. None of them are enforceable. Nothing it says in them matters.

How can you say this? What evidence do you have to prove this? AFAIK it always holds up 'cause you have a choice.

Please show me where there is evidence backing this piosition....

It is not legally binding because it is not a legal document. There is no signing by both (or either) parties, there is no notery present, no lawyer present, nothing.

PvK · #3 July 15th, 2003, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Making an unauthorized copy of software is stealing. If you want to argue it isn't stealing the software itself because it's not physical property and you aren't denying the owner the use of said property, then it is stealing the money the software would generate in sale if you purchased it legally. There might be a different legal definition for what that is besides stealing, I am not a lawyer. But you are depriving the owner of something that is rightfully theirs. In plain speak that is considered stealing is it not?

Geoschmo

I have yet to be convinced that anyone has a right to theoretical business profit they might have made if some "intellectual property violation" hadn't occured.

A few counter-examples:
Software industry likes to claim that they lose billions of dollars they otherwise would have had, because kids and foreigners didn't pay prices they could never afford. They also increase their theoretical losses for people check out a copy of software before buying, find out what crap it is, and so don't buy it. "Hey, if they couldn't get a copy of it, they would've had to pay $300 to find out that our software is worse than shareware! We lost millions of profits we should have had!"

PvK

geoschmo · #4 July 15th, 2003, 09:32 PM

So I am curious. Don't take this as sarcastic cause I am honestly asking to know. What is a fair method for a person who makes software to make sure he is properly compensated for his time and effort? It's not like all of us could go write our own game. Or even if we could we don't. So what should be the process involved so the developer can make a living producing software that we use and enjoy?

Geoschmo

rdouglass · #5 July 15th, 2003, 09:33 PM

I was just asking if anyone actually had evidence of a time where an EULA did NOT hold up (in the U.S. please - I know many things are OK in other contries).

And how well do you really think the defence "Well, I really didn't understand the fine print..." will hold up in court? In fact, a company in Texas was recently fined $173,000 for failing to comply with an EULA. If it was possible to circumvent the EULA, don't you think they would have tried?!?!?

geoschmo · #6 July 15th, 2003, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PvK:
I have yet to be convinced that anyone has a right to theoretical business profit they might have made if some "intellectual property violation" hadn't occured.

Well let's use an anology. It's not a perfect one, but it's pretty close. Say I own a movie threater. I sell tickets to people who pay to see the movie. Most shows don't fill up completely, but I make enough money to make a living and stay in business.

Now you think you want to see the new Van Dam movie, but you aren't sure cause the Last one was a real dog. So you sneak in the back door and watch the movie. It's not like you are taking a seat that someone else needs. The movie isn't likely to sell out anyway. So technically I haven't lost any money if you weren't going to pay to see it in the first place. And you were careful and didn't break the lock on teh door or anything like that. And maybe you will like the movie enough to come back the next night and pay to see it. Probably not, but you tell yourself that anyway and it makes you feel better.

So is that ok?

Geoschmo

geoschmo · #7 July 15th, 2003, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rdouglass:
I was just asking if anyone actually had evidence of a time where an EULA did NOT hold up (in the U.S. please - I know many things are OK in other contries).

And how well do you really think the defence "Well, I really didn't understand the fine print..." will hold up in court? In fact, a company in Texas was recently fined $173,000 for failing to comply with an EULA. If it was possible to circumvent the EULA, don't you think they would have tried?!?!?

I have a suspicion that saying a EULA is not legally enforceable is about like saying we aren't required by the constitution to pay income taxes. You might be able to make it sound all good and proper talking about it here in the forum but it's not going to fly in a real court.

Companies are all the time being hit with license fees for improperly copying software on different workstations. I have never heard of one of those being thrown out of court because the EULA wasn't legally binding. The reason the software compnies don't come after individual Users more is the cost of taking them to court is more then they will recover, and the bad press that it will generate.

Geoschmo