Ship Design for Dummies, weapons, armor, shields, oh my!

[oleg]

Originally posted by oleg:

quote:

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Originally posted by geoschmo:
Or am I reading too much into it?

Geoschmo

Not at all. Stock SEIV is very much offence orriented. May be the rational is that battles should be over in 30 turns ? If ships are ultra tough, battles can end in almost a draw. Then for example inferior fleet can survive warp point battle and move into the system. Or for example allow planet killer hide in the corner while other ships battle for 30 turns and then blow planet.

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[Nocturnal]

I don't look for a complete super ratio, I think that's a waste of time. Instead, I think in advance what I want each of my ship designs to do. For example, many of my ships are supposed to outrange the enemy, and stay just outside his firing range to dish out the damage. Those ships will get missiles and long range guns, and little to no armor (EMC I do give every combat ship, because it's so space efficient. I give combat sensors only to ships that use several direct fire weapons, including point defense turrets.)

For a missile ship, I'll give them loads of missiles and a handful of point defense cannons. No armor. Sometimes I'll escort these with dedicated point-defense ships that have about ten point-defense cannons, a combat sensor, and one "anti-ship" gun because otherwise they'll run into the corner and I want them to stick with my combat ships. These don't typically get armor.
Then there's the "Tank" type of ship. I'll give this one anywhere from 120 to 300 tons of [organic if I picked that] armor, and a few guns. Those have orders to move in close to the enemy to soak up the damage while the other ships shoot at them.

Carriers have at least 90 tons of armor to protect their cargo; they also have heavy guns and orders to behave as a combat ship. Noncombat ships typically recieve one organic armor and one lightning beam so they can beat enemy noncombat ships, and protect themselves for a little while if isolated.
I built an "armored dropship" class with 5020 cargo space, three fighter bays, and 270 tons of organic armor. This can take a planet without damaging its facilities, and if the planet isn't guarded by combat ships, it wouldn't even need an escorting fleet.
Fighters and troops never recieve armor (too useless on them) but may recieve one small shield if the enemy is consistently shooting them down.

My research path always goes towards good weapons first, then armor/shielding, and then specialized weapons like engine and weapon destroyers and shield-depleter boarding craft. Those Last use one heavy shield depleter, a tractor beam, boarding parties, a couple of point defense cannons and all the armor I can cram into them.

Remember: armor gets damaged first so the reason you're putting it on there is to protect the other components. You armor ships that need to be fast, or ships that have weapons you don't want destroyed, or any ship that carries close to its maximum cargo capacity into battle. It also should be applied liberally to ships that want to move in close-range to fire their weapons.

I do believe in "a good offense", but I also don't like losing ships. So I try to defend them enough to survive the battle (even if they're useless at the end of it.) I also try to design their defenses such that they'll be useful throughout the entire battle. My all-purpose "Orca" class battleship has 120 tons of organic armor, 4 [heavy I think] lightning beams, 6 parasites, and 4 point defense cannons. This is effective against many combinations of enemy ships because it can fight at any range. In my TDM game against the AI, one of these is conquering an entire front of advance by itself (With one troopship) and is at Legendary (40%) status. Because the organic armor heals itself after battle, he's never had to go back for repairs. But otherwise I'd just accompany it with an "Angel" class repair ship.
I recently designed a bigger model all-purpose ship with more armor and bigger weapons (enveloping acid globules so it doesn't need to get close at all.) I believe I called that a "Juggernaut".

In the army once they asked us what the difference was between armor and artillery. I jokingly answered, "armor has little guns and a big body, and artillery has big guns and a little body." The armor are supposed to protect the artillery, who dish out the damage.

[Stone Mill]

Just a note on shields... your designs will be vulnerable to ship capture without them. (Especially an WP ambush). So even though they are bulky and inefficient, I include just one even on my early designs.

If I see that a player is not using shields... I try and take advantage of this... hello boarding parties!

[PvK]

I think it depends somewhat on the exact match-ups. To-hit chances are important. For example, if your ships are hard for the enemy to hit, then being able to survive a few hits (or even just one) and still fight as well, can multiply a ship's effectiveness. On the other hand, if your ships are going to get pounded regularly, then it might make sense to try to get in as many shots as possible before they die.

Also consider cost. Weapons are more expensive than armor, especially organic armor, so the side with armor may be able to build and maintain more ships. Emissive armor looks better than regular armor until you consider the cost - it only seems to work well if you have a lot of tonnage to dedicate to it, and get one or two and then combine with lots of regular armor (not organic). Even then it's not that great, especially against powerful mounted weapons.

I can think of several other considerations which apply in different circumstances, too.

PvK

[Gryphin]

Seems like
Max Speed
Max ECM (if not facing the Big Tali)
3 to 6 armor III based on ship size
Couple of PDC
Max Offensive fire power.

I do tend to over simplyfy.

[Taera]

generally a ship without an armor or shields, i mean both, is too easily shot down. For shields, just get SD, its cheap. For armor everything works. BUT! once shields are down, every hit takes something out of your ship. And your lucky if it is a weapon. Because otherwise it might hit a bridge. Then your toast.

Armor is, supposedly, the backup of shields.

Now there is something else about shields. Not taking into account the defense bonuses from the high-tech armor, the racial armors are the best in the game and are best when put into massive quantities. For example i've found that a cruiser with like 5 OA and only a handful of weapons is extremly powerful, and very cheap. Then again a crystalline armored battleship is almost impenitrable to damage, resisting alot from every second shot.

In general some shields and some armor is a must, because every ship can do more - or at least soak up more damage.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Taera:
In general some shields and some armor is a must, because every ship can do more - or at least soak up more damage.

I know what you all are saying, and it makes sense in principle. But it just doesn't fit with what I see when I test it. I haven't tried shields yet, but at least for armor I see no point in using ANY once you get past LC's. The mounts make the weapons do just too much damage, even for Armor 3. That is unless you have a lot of armor, and then your ship is too weak to really hurt the other guy.

The only thing the armor does as far as I can tell is take up space better suited to more weapons. Your armored ships may Last an extra turn in battle, but the fewer weapons means your enemy Lasts longer then you do, and that is bad.

Now shields may very well have some value seeing as how they have a higher damage to size ratio then armor. As I said I have not tested that. And armor does seem to help with destroyers and smaller, assuming equal weapons tech. But the mounts make the damage too high for the armor to be an effective protection.

Now nothing I have said applies to organic armor or mods. I am talking only about standard armor in the stock game.

Geoschmo

[ July 26, 2003, 00:36: Message edited by: geoschmo ]