OT:US don't qualify for EU membership, don't spank children, WW2 history.

[Alpha Kodiak]

Originally posted by Loser:
To start with, I agree with Erax, but I also think we're doing fine. There will always be noise, and usually it will come from expected places.

quote:

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Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
Who knows, maybe the French would own the place.

This is improbable for many reasons. Some of which would come off like flames, so I'd best watch myself.

Most importantly, though, the Last chance the French had at regional domination was under Napoleon during the birth of modern nationalism. Unfortunately Napoleon, like Alexander and Hitler, did not have that so-necessary skill of empire-building: restraint. Take-and-hold or take-and-take-and-lose-and-lose-and-lose. Few warlords have both the patience necessary to do this and the initiative to take over the world, though. Genghis Khan had it, who else?

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Actually, I was just referring to the fact that if the US didn't make the Louisiana Purchase, the French would still own a significant part of what is the US. Of course, given France's situation, they probably would have sold to someone else (most likely, England or Spain) but it still makes for an interesting thought.

Then again, if the US wasn't around, the post WWII world would have probably been dominated by a Stalinist USSR, and the rest of the world could be trying to figure out how to deal with that.

[oleg]

...Then again, if the US wasn't around, the post WWII world would have probably been dominated by a Stalinist USSR, and the rest of the world could be trying to figure out how to deal with that. [/QB]

If US was not around, WWI could end other way - Germany forcing France to surrender. There would be no Versale treaty, Prussian empire survived and hence no fascism in Germany. But may be in France instead. The history would be trully different. There would be no USSR too, I pretty sure.

[sparhawk]

But!!, with no europe there should be no US...
In fact US was just a colony of europe. some time ago...

Sparhawk

[General Woundwort]

Originally posted by sparhawk:
But!!, with no europe there should be no US...
In fact US was just a colony of europe. some time ago...

Yes, and we rectified the situation as soon as we were made aware of it.

Originally posted by Loser:
Now if we could just model the development and exploitation of exceptional individuals in SE IV...

We already do. Atrocities, Geoschmo, Fyron, SJ...

[Cyrien]

First the Lousiana purchase... can't say how that would have gone without a US. Unlikely it would have been sold to England as the French and English were big rivals, which is one reason it went to the US, since at the time relations between England and US were very strained (War of 1812, smuggling, piracy, stopping American commerce vessels etc, colony that just gained independence with French help etc etc etc...)

As for Spain. Very unlikely since large tracks of that land had been Spains just a little while ago which they gave to France due to not being able to afford to garrison it, and of course it came with certain agreements attached, such as we will not under any circumstances sell this land to the United States, blah blah blah. Too bad Spain wasn't a big enough power at the time (a decling power as it where) to enforce the agreement when Napolean sold the land anyway.

It fact it could be argued that without the US purchasing it however that Napolean could not have fully funde his invasions of other countries and might have been forced to stop early... say without Russia in the fold. Which might have allowed for a big change in history with France as a major power.

Alternatly however the USSR almost certainly would still have arisen as a power the British held American colonies probably wouldn't have been as advanced industrialy wise and very doubtfully would have gone any further than the eastern coast of Mississipi all of which would drastically changed the course of WWI and might have superceded WW2 and made it never come to be with a German victory instead of Allied in WWI.

People always seem to forget that though the US didn't enter WWI until very late they profited off of it a great deal as the "Arsenal of Democracy" selling to the British. With British Colonial doctrine being what it was it is unlikely that the USA as colony would have had that kind of production capability, just look at India and Egypt and Australia or other British colonies for what it probably would have been. A source of raw materials for export to the British manufacturing base and a source of young men to be used as cannon fodder, sorry, artillery and heavy machine gun fodder...

In short without a USA the world would either be dominated by Germany, England, France, or the USSR depending on how things went. Despite what many of my fellow US citizens would like to think the US had very little impact on global affairs *read European affairs* until the late 1800's early 1900's. See the Spanish American War and the Chinese open door policy for notes on early US interest in global affairs.

So in conclusion the events of Europe would likely be much the same without a US as they where with a US until WWI or just before it. Then things can get very confusing.

PS: There is no reason Communism and Marx wouldn't have occurred without a US. Marx was based on the European Experience of Industrialization and the Russian Revolution was during the same year that the US entered into WWI. Other than a small expeditionary force that had little affect on the Soviet Revolution the US would not have influenced its outcome or happening in any meaningful way. So there is no reason the USSR wouldn't have formed, just no cold war between it and another Super Power afterwards.

[Thermodyne]

OT:

This is the worst picture I have seen from Iraq to-date

http://www.robert-fisk.com/030401AlKindi6.jpg

[Loser]

GAH!!!!

A bit more warning in the future, please.

[ August 25, 2003, 19:54: Message edited by: Loser ]