Is the intelligence in SE(?) ok?

[President_Elect_Shang]

I think these are all very good points and counter-points. But I also think that we are straying. What I wanted to know, changed from what I first asked, is what types of projects can we submit to Aaron that are more realistic in a game context. What ideas and suggestions can we come up with? For example some of the intel projects I would think need to be dropped, but can we replace them with something else?

[AMF]

Which projects do you think need to be dropped or modified? (throw up a list and we'll debate it)

Also, I am not a modd'er but are intel projects open to modding? That would make a lot of this a moot point, since we could just come up with a better intel mod...

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
I think these are all very good points and counter-points. But I also think that we are straying. What I wanted to know, changed from what I first asked, is what types of projects can we submit to Aaron that are more realistic in a game context. What ideas and suggestions can we come up with? For example some of the intel projects I would think need to be dropped, but can we replace them with something else?

[Roanon]

Originally posted by alarikf:
Which projects do you think need to be dropped or modified? (throw up a list and we'll debate it)

All of them

I think, the problem is intel is black or white. Either it is totally wasted money and utterly useless, because your target has developed counterintel some gazillion years ago and happily has kept storing these otherwise unusable intel points into triple-effective counterintel since then. Or you manage to succeed, and because of exhausted counterintel from there on continually, where nearly every combination of intel projects has the ability to destroy the targetted empire more effective than large fleets of huge warships.

A totally different design, which I admit am too tired to think about now, would be needed most - then even the current projects may become balanced and useful.

[ December 17, 2003, 16:55: Message edited by: Roanon ]

[President_Elect_Shang]

Originally posted by alarikf:
Which projects do you think need to be dropped or modified? (throw up a list and we'll debate it)

Also, I am not a modd'er but are intel projects open to modding? That would make a lot of this a moot point, since we could just come up with a better intel mod...

I will need a little time to look into that one since I have not played with them turned on in some time. I really can’t remember which ones I would want to change off hand but don’t stop the discussion on account of me. Can they be Moded? Good question but don't worry about it unless you really want to know. I would like to drum up ideas to submit to Aaron as a group for changes in SE5 as opposed to Mod ideas.

[Suicide Junkie]

How about:
Remove counter intel projects.
Price of intel sabotage should be medium-low. (reduction in price as counter-intel tech rises, say)
Espionage projects should have low to medium cost depending on value.
Sabotage projects should have high to extreme costs depending on value.

low = about 10k
medium = about 40k
high = 100k
Extreme = 500k

So, the chance of success goes down with the time taken to complete the project.
The big sabotage projects would take quite a while to do, and would be vulnerable to intel-sabotage projects. Running some throw-away "decoy" projects would use more intel points, but would help your chances overall.

Someone capable of completing 12 intel-sabotage projects in one turn could completely block any multi-turn projects by one other player...
This would still allow a few cheaper projects through, but would be good protection against major sabotage.
It would also leave a vulnerability to other attackers. If the projects are split, you'd still catch a good deal of the major sabotage, though there would be a chance of success if you get unlucky on the intel sabotaging.

Feel free to tweak the numbers, these are just rough.

[Baron Grazic]

The change I would like to see, is just one extra field "Percentage of Success" for each Intelligence Project.
Each time you do an Intel Op, if the other race has 'Counter-Intel then it fails (perhaps a tiny chance of success anyway?).
If no 'Counter-Intel then the Intel Op has a "Percentage of Success".
Have this field a text field within each Intel Project so the modders could change it to what they think is appropriate.
i.e.. Ship Blueprints - "Percentage of Success" = 80%
i.e.. Ship Bomb - "Percentage of Success" = 25%
i.e.. Puppet Political Parties - "Percentage of Success" = 5%

Having a "Percentage of Success" would stop all Intel ops succeeding when you remove their 'Counter Intel, and it would make you think more on which Intel projects would benefit you more.

Do you want to risk 10K Intel points on a ship bomb project with a 20% chance, or learn the blue prints on that new Dreadnaught for 15K, with a 80% chance of success?

[Roanon]

Having a (low) chance of success is a very good idea. With these lesser chances, the ability to store counterintel points should be removed, and the system might actually work. You either have more CI or you don't. If you do not have enough CI, the spies do not make devastating damage for sure every turn, but have a small chance every turn. And this not after dozens of turns wearing down CI defenses but from the first turn of the intel clash onwards.
Another interesting option might be to offer different spcialized CI projects, which are more effective in their field (e.g. planet sabotage, ship sabotage, etc) but do not affect intel in other fields at all. So you have more choices than just "everything to counter intel" every turn.