OT - Who wants to write a "roguelike" game? How about a 4X?

[David E. Gervais]

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
roguelike's don't have graphics. those which do, take your pick:
A) Aren't roguelike's.
B) Should be bLasted off the face of the universe like the corruption they are.

Grrrrrrr, I lean in and grab narf by the collar and pull him close so that he can hear my low raspy whisper you know narf, it's like this,.. the original rogue was 'text' based (aka ascii) because the machine it was programmed on did not have 'graphic' capabilities. I think, (and I'm not alone) that people that say 'roguelikes should be text-based exclusively' are wrong. It would be the same as saying Computer games should only have 4 colors, because the first ones used CGA and that was limited to 4 colors. So it's not computer-gamelike if it has more colors or higher resolution.

I release narf and pat him gently on the head now be a good rat and go play in the sandbox.



Cheers!

[ January 28, 2004, 14:30: Message edited by: David E. Gervais ]

[narf poit chez BOOM]

MOUSE! i'm a MOUSE!

we do have 'roguelike' games that have graphics. there called >Adventure< or >RPG< games. by saying roguelike, i am refering to a specific type of adventure or rpg game where the graphics are text-based. to call a graphical adventure or rpg a roguelike would reduce the classification to redundancy.

so there. *bounces a peice of cheese off David's head.*

[ January 28, 2004, 19:43: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

[David E. Gervais]

Originally posted by narf poit chez BOOM:
MOUSE! i'm a MOUSE!

so there. *bounces a peice of cheese off David's head.*

With the reflexes of a cat I catch the cheeze before it hits the floor and pop it into my mouth, mmmmmm, cheddar, good stuff.

Narf Have you ever played a game called Angband? Nethack? ToME? All these are considered 'Roguelike' but they also have the option to play with 'graphic' tiles. So according to you these games STOP being a roguelike game when you toggle the graphics on? Bzzzzzzzzz, Wrong! Roguelike is a 'type' of gameplay experience. Not a 'set' of text display routines. by your definition to be roguelike a game needs to be text based. Does this mean the computer Version of 'hangman' that uses a text display is a roguelike?

You are mixing apples and oranges, and while apples go good with cheeze, I doubt that oranges are.

Cheers!

[ January 28, 2004, 20:17: Message edited by: David E. Gervais ]

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by David E. Gervais:
You are mixing apples and oranges, and while apples go good with cheeze, I doubt that oranges are.

I have had oranges with motzerella cheeze. Not on it, but side by side. It may not go as well as apples and cheeze, but the tastes are not uncomplimentary.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Narf Have you ever played a game called Angband? Nethack? ToME? All these are considered 'Roguelike' but they also have the option to play with 'graphic' tiles. So according to you these games STOP being a roguelike game when you toggle the graphics on? Bzzzzzzzzz, Wrong! Roguelike is a 'type' of gameplay experience. Not a 'set' of text display routines. by your definition to be roguelike a game needs to be text based. Does this mean the computer Version of 'hangman' that uses a text display is a roguelike?

yes, they do indeed stop being roguelike. experience? any very well-designed RPG can give you your 'roguelike' experience, which seems to be about depth of playability. but, again, calling something with graphics a roguelike reduces the classification to redundancy. so there.

[David E. Gervais]

Ok, Narf I'll set the record straight and give you a history lesson at the same time..

The origins of Rogue...

Michael Toy and Glenn Wichman, two students in University of Santa Cruz, California, experimented with curses library. They both had enjoyed playing Adventure which was the first text adventure game. After making some simple games with curses, they began to write a graphical adventure game. Michael Toy did most of the programming and Glenn contributed ideas to the project and coined the name "Rogue".

One of their main goals to create a game they could enjoy playing by themselves. Most existing adventure-type games had predesigned plot and world which remained exactly the same every time you played it. Michael and Glenn decided to make Rogue more random. Rogue build the dungeon using the pseudo-random number generator, so the game was different every time you played it, making it possible that even the creators of the game could be surprised by it.


So if you notice the bold text "they began to write a graphical adventure game." you can see that the original rogue was indeed designed to be a 'graphical adventure' the fact that it uses 'curses' instead of bitmaps does not make it 'less-graphical'. They were simply using the tools of the day. (and making very innovative use of the tools too.)

What does this mean? It means that the original 'Rogue' was always meant to be a 'graphical' game and therefore all 'Roguelike' games should also be considered 'graphical' and weather they use 'ascii' or 'tiles' , has no bearing on their being roguelike. What makes games roguelike is 'Random' dungeons, treasure, monsters, multiple levels and a hot concept called 'replayability'.

Rogue is the 'Grandfather of crpg'. Give Rogue the full credit it is due. Don't just say it's the first text-based crpg, it is so much more than that.

I rest my case.

So what do I win?

Cheers!

[narf poit chez BOOM]

fine, so RPG's with random dungeons and stuff can call themselves 'roguelikes'.

what do you win? cheese!

*drops 2 tons of cheese on David*

but what do you do when all RPG's have random dungeons, huh? what do you do then? didn't think of that, did you?