Counter Intelligence Questions

DirectorTsaarx · #1 April 4th, 2001, 11:04 PM

Magus: I don't know what the "Effect Value" does. I do know that, at least through 1.27, one Counter-Intelligence project (of any level) could counter only one Intel project (of any level).

The "superiority" of the levels is mainly that the higher-level projects are "active" for a longer time, so fewer counter-intelligence points are wasted on CI projects that don't counter anything. Of course, there's also one Intel project that can't be blocked by a level 1 Counter-Intel project: Research Stealing (or something like that; the one you can use to "copy" another empire's research and gain a level in some research area). It's a high-cost (like 150,000 points) project, so you need a Level 2 Counter-Intel to stop it. But it's a fairly benign project - you don't lose anything if the enemy uses it on you; he just gains a minor tech boost. Which the AI may or may not be able to use...

As for having 20 enemies: you're in trouble. Run 12 Counter-Intel projects, build LOTS of Intel Facilities (so you can pump lots of points into each project every turn) and hope for the best.

Magus38 · #2 April 4th, 2001, 11:25 PM

Here's something that supports the idea that CI III defends against up to 3 attacks from a single empire.

I am now running five repeating CI III projects, the other slots being devoted to Crew insurrections (a cheap way to totally disrupt the enemy and in some cases steal tech. Very neat combined with high level Quantum Resonators because you steal a ship somewhere, then have your stellar engineering ship open a warp point directly to its' location, then close the point again after it travels through to your territory... but I digress). What I have observed, checking the projects every turn, is that, despite my points being divided evenly, some of the CI III projects have suddenly advanced by one third and some by two thirds, while others are not moving at all. This behaviour coupled with the fact of the log message is starting to convince me.

[This message has been edited by Magus38 (edited 04 April 2001).]

Magus38 · #3 April 4th, 2001, 11:49 PM

Ok, after looking carefully at the information on the MM website I have concluded that CI works against any attack, regardless of the empire. I think that it does protect against a number of attacks consistent with "Effect Amount" of the level of CI, though how this is calculated exactly I don't know. Finally, I think the log message simply refers to the Last empire blocked. Of course all this is simply conjecture. I think I may send this whole thread to MM for arbitration.

Will · #4 April 5th, 2001, 05:39 AM

CI III does not block three operations... once one operation is attempted, it dies, I've observed this a few times in my current game. Only other explanation would be that the AI is doing three ops at a time, completing at the same time...

Baron Munchausen · #5 April 5th, 2001, 06:22 AM

Counter-intelligence operations are expensive because it is YOUR spending against the ATTACKER's spending. If the counter-intelligence operation costs less than the attacking operation, it cannot neutralize it. That's why the "Puppet Political Parties" operation is so hard to counter. You need counter-intel level three and the points to match the attackers spending.

DirectorTsaarx · #6 April 5th, 2001, 07:59 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
Counter-intelligence operations are expensive because it is YOUR spending against the ATTACKER's spending. If the counter-intelligence operation costs less than the attacking operation, it cannot neutralize it.

Very good; a concise explanation that is completely correct.

quote:
That's why the "Puppet Political Parties" operation is so hard to counter. You need counter-intel level three and the points to match the attackers spending.

Well, actually, PPP costs 100,000 Intel points. Counter-Intelligence level I costs... 100,000 Intel points. So level 1 could (if you spend more points per turn on it than the opponent, and the CI doesn't block another Intel op in the meantime) block a PPP attack. Especially if the "Counter-Intel Bonus" setting in Settings.txt is working. The benefit to using a higher-level CI project is that you're more likely to have a high amount of CI points built up when an attack comes through.

As I said earlier, the only project that costs MORE than a level 1 CI project is Technological Espionage, at 150,000 points.

PsychoTechFreak · #7 April 13th, 2001, 10:34 AM

My observations to CI:

-CI points don't stack/accumulate every turn, this is not like an Intel project or research project

-so the maximum possible CI value is the same as the Intel-points you produce every turn

-I have checked this: Empire A has a CI-level III project, 25000 points, which means it can counter intel for this amount every turn (see above),
Empire B ran 4 small intel projects (5000 to 15000 points), all four projects completed in the same turn and all projects failed due to the one CI project of Empire A

I have tested this with two empires against one CI-level 3 project also, with same results, so don't waste your Intel-slots, one huge CI-level 3 project will do it, unless you produce more than 500000 points each turn, then you should divide projects. This makes sense to me.

[This message has been edited by PsychoTechFreak (edited 13 April 2001).]