suggestion about commanders

[PDF]

Well, the problem IMHO is not that we don't have "ships" per se, but rather than sea is impassable to most nations...

So why not implement a simple "Port" structure, that will allow a (limited) army to cross 1-3 sea provinces, in the same way than Vanheim can sail ?

The port could be only allowed to some nations, and its cost, the ship range and ship capacity (size of army movable per turn) could depend on nation : Vanheim would get small cost ports and long range (they could use ships for armies w/o "sailing comander"), Arco could get medium range and capacity, Pythium short range/big capacity, Abysia nothing etc...

This won't be difficult to do, as the mechanics already exist , and will solve the problem.
The only big impact is on game balance ...
What do you think ?

[ September 29, 2003, 20:33: Message edited by: PDF ]

[Nerfix]

@Pocus:LOL!

@PDF:
Hmmmm... Well, that would be one solution...

[st.patrik]

I don't think I would want the kind of addition PDF is talking about. I think I prefer it the way it is.

[Bard of Prey]

Well, I guess I'll through my 2 gp into the debate...

On ships: the technical difficulty of adding ships as strategic or tactical units has already been pointed out, although if there were a way to overcome these problems (possibly for a potential Dom III), then I agree that it would be pretty cool to see monsters coming up out of the waves to board your ships...

The problem of ownership could be settled by treating ships much like stealthy units, except that they wouldn't be able to attack an underwater province (unless they could breathe water as well), but they would run the risk of being discovered and attacked by the underwater residents of that province (or by enemy fleets). The 'owner' of the province would be whoever controlled the underwater portion.

As far as buildings and such allowing 'abstract' use of ships, I don't really see the need. Not only are most of the cultures used as a basis for these nations drawn from an era when ocean navigation was not possible (or at least, not reliable enough to risk an army on), but there are already several nations that can enter sea provinces, plus the new Water Cult theme... so if you really want to fight in the seas, you've got lots of options.

There could be a few more small things added though... for instance, I could see a national commander, for nations like Pythium for instance, who's a skilled navigator, and can carry his army across seas like the Vanir do... or perhaps a Death spell that summons a 'Ghost Ship', allowing the casting mage to do the same.

I'm afraid I don't really like the idea of improved castles either... mostly because it takes away from the choices you make when designing your nation. Who's going to spend 150 nation points on a great fortress when you can get the same effect by merely spending gold in-game? The same goes for economic buildings really... these things are abstracted into such concepts as dominion scales (one could assume that a strong Order dominion encourages the building of mills and other economic structures for example), starting castle choices (for the administration and supply bonuses) and the 'natural' resource and tax base of various provinces (these places aren't virgin wilderness after all, they do have some infrastructure... you just don't have to mess around with building it yourself).

Formations are another cool idea, but I can easily see how difficult this would be to implement. For one thing, the major counter-tactic to most of them is to break up the formation. The coding for that would be a nightmare... how would the game determine when your shield wall was sufficiently mixed up that it no longer provided its bonuses? Would it happen gradually, or all at once? Also, you'd pretty much have to start accounting for things like which direction a unit was facing when it was attacked... and that's a pretty serious mechanic, especially for something to add in a patch. Would fatigue affect the bonuses you get from formations? What if your squads aren't composed of all the same types of troops? Can mindless troops use formations? Etc., etc....

It's not very often that I argue against the inclusion of new features in a game, but in some cases added complexity breaks more than it 'fixes'. This is especially true when it comes to programming the AI to use these elements... if not done carefully (and preferably in the very early stages of design), it is incredibly easy to 'lobotomize' the AI by adding features only humans can use properly.

[st.patrik]

Originally posted by Bard of Prey:
Formations are another cool idea, but I can easily see how difficult this would be to implement. For one thing, the major counter-tactic to most of them is to break up the formation. The coding for that would be a nightmare... how would the game determine when your shield wall was sufficiently mixed up that it no longer provided its bonuses? Would it happen gradually, or all at once? Also, you'd pretty much have to start accounting for things like which direction a unit was facing when it was attacked... and that's a pretty serious mechanic, especially for something to add in a patch. Would fatigue affect the bonuses you get from formations? What if your squads aren't composed of all the same types of troops? Can mindless troops use formations? Etc., etc....

That makes sense. Oh well. BTW you seem to have very well thought-out contributions - I give you 5 stars

[licker]

" it is incredibly easy to 'lobotomize' the AI by adding features only humans can use properly. "

Heh, MoO3 anyone? Though there were more problems there than just too much complexity.

Actually the abstracted complexity is fine when the game is more geared to macro... but the testing and proving that the complexity can be handled by the AI must be a pain in the @#$...

I wouldn't mind seeing more robust province modeling in Dom eventually, but I don't think it should be attemped for Dom2. The next step in Dom would hopefully be further improvements to combat, either by allowing for some sort of control during a battle, or expanded orders for scripting.

It would also be nice if there were some assistance in setting your scripts. Say you selected a group of commanders with units and were given some basic choices for setting all of their positions and attitudes. Then you could still go in and tweek specific placements and orders. But the going through every commander and every group of units one by one is quite tedious (at least in Dom1).

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by Bard of Prey:
[QB]Well, I guess I'll through my 2 gp into the debate...

There could be a few more small things added though... for instance, I could see a national commander, for nations like Pythium for instance, who's a skilled navigator, and can carry his army across seas like the Vanir do... or perhaps a Death spell that summons a 'Ghost Ship', allowing the casting mage to do the same.

Formations are another cool idea, but I can easily see how difficult this would be to implement. For one thing, the major counter-tactic to most of them is to break up the formation. The coding for that would be a nightmare... how would the game determine when your shield wall was sufficiently mixed up that it no longer provided its bonuses? Would it happen gradually, or all at once? Also, you'd pretty much have to start accounting for things like which direction a unit was facing when it was attacked... and that's a pretty serious mechanic, especially for something to add in a patch. Would fatigue affect the bonuses you get from formations? What if your squads aren't composed of all the same types of troops? Can mindless troops use formations? Etc., etc....
[QB]

There is a new unit that is recruitable in sites that works in a Vanir like way, the navigator. If I recall correctly there is also one navigator with a mercenary band.

I think you succintly summed up the major problems with implementing formations.