.com.unity Forums
  The Official e-Store of Shrapnel Games

This Month's Specials

The Falklands War: 1982- Save $9.00
winSPMBT: Main Battle Tank- Save $5.00

   







Go Back   .com.unity Forums > Illwinter Game Design > Dominions 2: The Ascension Wars

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old October 16th, 2003, 03:20 PM

Patrik Patrik is offline
Private
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 42
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Patrik is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II

Quote:
Originally posted by Pocus:
quote:
Originally posted by Patrik:
Summoners: Battlefield summons (for example lesser elementals and Howl) now cost gems. This will address the relief/summoning combo.
this will adress the power of Howl, but wont change anything about relief, as Wendigo pointed it. With 3 druids, you basically suppress the fatigues incurred by your mages during the 5 first rounds. Dont appears very balanced too me, for a 0 gem spell.
Wendigo said
Quote:
Originally posted by Wendigo:
4.- The army of summoners backed up with relief.
Relief combined with gemfree summonings was truly abusive, when those are gone relief will still be powerful, but less so. Maybe relief should be area restricted, but IMHO Nature magic needs this spell to be competitive.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old October 16th, 2003, 05:47 PM
Saber Cherry's Avatar

Saber Cherry Saber Cherry is offline
Major General
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Crystal Tokyo
Posts: 2,453
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Saber Cherry is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II

Quote:
Originally posted by johan osterman:
The order scale has been rescaled to since you Last participated in a beta MP, it is 7% per step now. The growth and production give a 2% income bonus per step.
Why would you spend 120 points on production for a 6% increase in income? Does it have some other effect?
__________________
Cherry
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old October 16th, 2003, 05:51 PM

johan osterman johan osterman is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 883
Thanks: 0
Thanked 13 Times in 5 Posts
johan osterman is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II

10% resource bonus per step from the production scale. Growth and supplies increase from the growth scale.

[ October 16, 2003, 16:52: Message edited by: johan osterman ]
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old October 16th, 2003, 06:04 PM
apoger's Avatar

apoger apoger is offline
Second Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 410
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
apoger is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II

>While we are at this, I will add that I disagree with Alex' list of whammies. While all those are certainly strong tactics, most of them are countereable &, although powerful in the right setting, you can both win without most of them & you can fight them.

I (nor anyone else, AFAIK) ever said that they were uncounterable. You are reading more into what was said than was there.

>1.- Diplomacy

I wouldn't disagree that diplomacy is incredibly potent.

>I cringe when I see demands of an increase of this in MP games with stuff like 'right of passage', the Last thing we need is to make these gangfest easier. No problem with an increase of diplomacy options regarding the AI in SP, but diplomacy is strong enough as it is in MP.

This I disagree with this strongly.
In any conflict involving multiple nations, diplomacy is critical to success. It's an essential facet of strategy and has every reason to be modeled into a wargame. Particularly one as complex as Dominions.

I understand that some players like the idea of anomymous power-gaming where there is limited interaction. I have no issue with that. Such players would always have the option of turning dippy off or playing in a low interaction game. Just because some players like this however, is no reason to spite those that do like dippy.

I submit that the best path is to give the players as many options as possible, and let them pick and choose what type of game they wish to participate in.

>2.- The full economy+combat pretender with no magic+full taxing/patrolling triada:

>Hopefully this is going to change in Dom II, and we will see funnier designs with more magic & less economy.

While I'd like to see some changes to this as well, I have concerns that the current system (Dom II) that limits the "money" scales will have the opposite effect, making gold more scarce will limit mages and might inspire much more military and early game super combatants. I dearly hope I'm wrong.

>3.- Supercombatants: Wyrms & Nataraja types early on, IDs, Pazuzus, FIs and other breeds later on. This is the way to go for victories with no cost, they are an all or nothing bet, but when they win they win big.

>This is also being tonned down a bit for Dom II, which is good. I like playing with these guys, it's funny to equip them & tailor them to the opposition, but they are too strong as the game stands.

Again, less money and more magic scale will inspire more super pretenders. Lessening the effect of the shields is only a small check on their potency.

I'll be better able to comment once I see the new game.

>4.- The army of summoners backed up with relief. I am surprised this doesn't get complained about more...field 20 mages, have them cast spells as if they were 60 instead, what's balanced about this?

The reason this isn't a huge issue is that by the time you have giant armies of mages and all the research for such combo's, we are also entering the "army bLasting" phase of the game. The army bLasters rip up stacks of mages.

Furthermore, super combatants were always much more in evidence than mage stacks. The mage stacks were one of the few ways to counter super combatants. Hence the lack of complaints.

Indeed, if Dom II has restrictions on conjuration (seems that way), then we will just see a movement towards evocation/relief instead.

This said, much of this is conjecture since I haven't seen the new system in action. I think once we all get the new game and spend some time with it, we will all be better qualified to judge the new balance.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old October 16th, 2003, 06:54 PM
Saber Cherry's Avatar

Saber Cherry Saber Cherry is offline
Major General
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Crystal Tokyo
Posts: 2,453
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Saber Cherry is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II

Oh, I have another favorite DomI strategy that won't work in DomII!

"Getting the demo, and never bothering to get the full Version, because the demo basically is the full Version."

__________________
Cherry
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old October 16th, 2003, 06:59 PM
Nerfix's Avatar

Nerfix Nerfix is offline
Lieutenant General
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Hyvinkää, Finland
Posts: 2,703
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Nerfix is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II

Quote:
Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Oh, I have another favorite DomI strategy that won't work in DomII!

"Getting the demo, and never bothering to get the full Version, because the demo basically is the full Version."

Yup.
Dom II demo is like tigthened social security.

Ooops, culture specific humor...
__________________

"Boobs are OK. Just not for Nerfix [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Smile.gif[/img] ."
- Kristoffer O.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old October 16th, 2003, 07:09 PM

Wendigo Wendigo is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 289
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Wendigo is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II

Me:
>> diplomacy is strong enough as it is in MP.

Alex:
>This I disagree with this strongly.

No surprise here, we have held opposing views on this topic before in the newsgroup.

IIRC you campaigned for:
- Right of passage.
To which I answered same as here: it would only make gangfests easier.

- Exchange of commanders/mages/troops.
To which I said that allowing such would only dilute the differences between nations and result in a duller game, as nations would not have to find ways to compensate for their weaknesses because they could do so easily via diplomacy.

I haven't however seen any argument to counter the above ones, as the one that follows doesn't hold.

>In any conflict involving multiple nations, diplomacy is critical to success. It's an essential facet of strategy and has every reason to be modeled into a wargame. Particularly one as complex as Dominions.

This is a false analogy with RL. In RL it is possible for a nation to 'win' by staying out of trouble or either achieve a mutual gain by submitting to a bigger power. Obviously, this has no place in a game where 'there can be only one ruling God' by definition. You can say that you personally would like to have more diplomacy options in this game, but there's definitely no need for those as you seem to imply in your argument, the game is not a simulation of our world.

I do not oppose cooperative gameplay per se, but the limits of it must definitely be stated beforehand when the game is launched (looks like we at least agree on this), otherwise it only results in fustration as players develop different expectatives of what is, or not, allowed in a game that requires a heavy time investment.

And I definitely do not see any need to increase the power of what is already the most powerful MP weapon with further coding favoring its use (or abuse), for me this would detract from the game, by making it duller and less challenging (as in, your actions & gaming have a much lower impact on the result of the game the more powerful diplomacy is, as taken to the extreme what counts is how many nations you can get under the umbrella of your alliance vs that of your enemy).

I would rather have the devs spend their time in stuff that improved my enjoyment (balancing, micromanagement reductions...) or at least were neutral to it (Diplomacy in SP regarding the AI...).

[ October 16, 2003, 18:12: Message edited by: Wendigo ]
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2025, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.