Big Problem - Unbalanced random events

[Chris Byler]

PvK, I see your point, but having your home province beseiged by a vampire lord on turn 5 isn't a "unique and interesting challenge"; it's instant game over. You have no realistic chance of *ever* breaking that siege. You can't even raise an army to do so: your only fortress is beseiged!

Early loss of temples, labs, 50+ instant unrest, and even killing 1/4 of your population aren't necessarily instant death (although if you're in a MP game where the abilities of the players are anywhere near close, they're very likely to doom you). But having your home province beseiged by an immortal ethereal undead on turn 5? That's just ridiculous.

I thought certain events were supposed to be Banned from the first few turns - maybe Illwinter just forgot to put that one on the list.

IMO, the following should be Banned from capitol provinces only for at least the first 10 turns:
* Anything that attacks/beseiges the province (the aforementioned vampire lord, vinemen, the 5 heroes, etc.)
* Mass population killers (flood, emigration, hurricane)
* (maybe) Temple destruction - it's possible to recover from this by appointing a prophet to rebuild the temple, but I wouldn't mind seeing it added to the list anyway; prophet selection is crucial for some nations and this can force you to create the wrong prophet.

I'd also like to suggest some new bad events that I think are less severe than some of the existing ones:
* Some of your troops in (province) have contracted a deadly disease. (Immortals, undead and inanimates exempt, requires growth 0 or less)
* (Commandername) the (commandertype) has died of a sudden illness. (Pretenders, immortals, undead and inanimates exempt, requires growth 0 or less)
* Some of your troops in (province) have deserted your armies. (Pretender, prophet, sacred and mindless units exempt, chance of desertion depends on morale, requires order 0 or less)
* The province defense in (province) has become lax in its training and its effectiveness is reduced. (can only occur if there is some province defense there, requires order 1 or less)
* A thief has stolen (number) (type) magic gems from your treasury. (requires order 1 or less)
* [(Commander)'s] (magic item)'s power has dwindled and it is no longer effective. (artifacts exempt, requires magic -1 or less)
* (Province) has revolted against your rule and declared independence. (Requires high unrest but no scale requirements, the province generates a new set of independent forces which then attack your armies there; province defense fights on the side of the locals and if your armies win anyway, it is eliminated as if you had just conquered the province.)
* An unemployed mercenary commander has decided to set up his own kingdom in (province). (Requires the presence of an unemployed mercenary company in the mercenary list. It attacks the province and if it wins, becomes the garrison of the now independent province.)

Basically, anything that attacks your *present* power would be (IMO) less severe than the mass population killers which seem to be one of the most common bad events currently, even with high luck scales. Provinces attacked by neutral forces are fine - except if it's your home province very early - because you can always fight them and get it back relatively unharmed. But a province that has been torn down can't be built back up - at all, ever - and that makes pop hosers, especially early, very very bad for nations that aren't dead Ermor.

Taking away some troops, gems or items is clearly a bad event - even for Ermor, although some of the troop events I mentioned don't affect undead - but it isn't permanently crippling. And it's more in line with the good events, which give only one-time benefits (although some of them are fairly large one-time benefits, they still don't stack up to losing 50+ income *every turn forever*).

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
PvK, I see your point, but having your home province beseiged by a vampire lord on turn 5 isn't a "unique and interesting challenge"; it's instant game over. You have no realistic chance of *ever* breaking that siege. You can't even raise an army to do so: your only fortress is beseiged!

It's only an "instant game over" if both your pretender and already produced troops are also dead, as the count's army isn't that hard to dislodge. You only need to make them rout after all.

Early loss of temples, labs, 50+ instant unrest, and even killing 1/4 of your population aren't necessarily instant death (although if you're in a MP game where the abilities of the players are anywhere near close, they're very likely to doom you). But having your home province beseiged by an immortal ethereal undead on turn 5?

It's not certain to doom you, since the other players also likely had similar events, or they paid the nation points to prevent them. The vampire count's immortality means nothing in this instance, since he isn't in friendly dominion.

* A thief has stolen (number) (type) magic gems from your treasury. (requires order 1 or less)
* (Province) has revolted against your rule and declared independence.

These two already exist.

[Chazar]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
PvK, I see your point, but having your home province beseiged by a vampire lord on turn 5 isn't a "unique and interesting challenge"; it's instant game over.

I entirely agree! Luck is a part of the game, but it shouldnt decide a strategy game in an instant. I my opinion, a MP game is only interesting if all players are on an equal level:
A crippled development can hardly be recoverd quick enough in MP, hence that player is an easy prey, but not a challenge for the other neighboring players!

Please: include an option to disable severe random effects on capitals for the first 10 turns. Thats all that is required to settle the issue in my view.

[ March 31, 2004, 15:11: Message edited by: Chazar ]

[PrinzMegaherz]

It's only an "instant game over" if both your pretender and already produced troops are also dead, as the count's army isn't that hard to dislodge. You only need to make them rout after all.

Well, of course not, unless the vampire count refuses to rout after killing his mindless peasants and begins to flood the field with soulless which, after a long battle, even kill my vampire queen.

I dont mind it, it was SP after all.

[PvK]

It's still not really game over, especially in SP. In MP, it's time for diplomacy and secrecy. Independent attacks never assault a castle, so you should have some units that can be mustered to relieve the seige, while perhaps you summon some creatures or forge magic weapons (bye bye, ethereal protection) and/or research appropriate spells inside the castle. Also, if you were prudent, you have some cash reserves and can hire mercenaries, and even without a castle, troops can be hired in other provinces. This is a good situation in which to use the so-called "useless" low-resource light troops, because for a single battle like this, strength can really lie in numbers.

Still, I agree it'd be nice to have limits on the early-game disasters, and I do like Chris' suggested events.

Oh, and I think it was earlier on this thread I mentioned I wasn't sure, but there is a "large numbers of immigrants arrive in province Q" event.

PvK

[PvK]

Originally posted by PrinzMegaherz:
...Well, of course not, unless the vampire count refuses to rout after killing his mindless peasants and begins to flood the field with soulless which, after a long battle, even kill my vampire queen.
...

Does your immortal queen then immediately come back to your castle, allowing you to endlessly keep trying to break the seige using her?

PvK

[PrinzMegaherz]

Does your immortal queen then immediately come back to your castle, allowing you to endlessly keep trying to break the seige using her?

She did.
To be honest, I just took her to find out why most people in this forum agree on her being a good SC. She did not match my expectations however, and so I ended this game