Blood?

Keir,

I think you need to try them more in an MP situation instead of test-runs. Things take on a totally different light when dealing with living, breathing opponents. A 10 turn test run is all I'd ever take any credibility to tests, as it gives you a shaping of whatever strategy/tactic you're using more often than not tainted by MP experiance. After turn 10 most of what can be conjectured is hypothetical and dependant on circumstance(s) so it's irrelevant to make broad generalizations until you have quite a few games under your belt. Which with this game is more difficult than your standard twitch game. Especially since you'd have to play a single nation repeatedly against a diverse swath of opponents.

Scout blood hunting is the only issue I think needs to be addressed. Whether it was intended or not; I'd prefer to know. Because it seems that the 'added benefit of blood magic' nations don't have any sort of edge with it. the scouts ease of getting slaves and low requirements for getting the 'good' blood spells (HfH and ID's) lets any race early (if they have mages or find some) or later use blood magic just as effectively. Maybe an added bonus to searching for an entire nation (Like Mictlan or Pangaea) could represent some sort of difference.

[Jasper]

I like the idea of varrying the effectiveness of most units blood hunting according to the controlling faction!

A similar thought is to varry the effectivess of hunters depending on the power of blood mages present. So mundane units couldn't find slaves without blood mage present to tell them where to look, and hunting efficiency would increase (but taper off) as more/more-powerfull blood mages are added.

This way nations with access to blood mages would have an advantage, without hard coding it. It would also give you some reason to recruit blood mages beyond the few needed to summon demons.

[Truper]

Originally posted by Jasper:

quote:

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Originally posted by Bowlingballhead:
I just want to say: Truper, I couldn't have put it better myself.

IMHO it's worth pointing out that Truper lost in his example because he made several mistakes. He had the wrong equipment on his Ice Devil for the task, and sat still for several turns while his opponent brought in an appropriate counter.

In particular Wraith Swords don't work against 0 encumberance undead, Ice Devils can cast Quickness without needing 10 gems for boots, and one can expect the possibility of Mandragoras from C'tis and prepare with higher MR.

Even still it looks to me like he lost due to bad luck, as his Magic Resistance and defense should have been high enough to be mostly immune to Sleep Vines.

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IMHO its worth pointing out that Bowlingballhead was probably referring to "I am of the opinion that SCs are fun, but I think I'd ignore them if I were trying to maximize my efficiency, rather than my fun quotient" when he said that he couldn't have put it better.

Wraith Swords work particularly well against the various sorts of lizards C'tis could be expected to, and did, send along with its Manakins. Having boots saves a round (or half a round depending on how you look at it) and 20 fatigue, both of which are valuable if the ID does happen to face the 0 encumberence undead before anything else. Rainbow Armor increases magic resistance, as well as providing reinvigoration, and so is quite valuable preparation if facing sleep vines.

The only real point to the anecdote was to provide an example of the many cheap and effective counters to large and expensive monsters which abound in Dominions.

[ January 08, 2004, 14:58: Message edited by: Truper ]

[Jasper]

You could have done better than the situation you described. For example seizing rather than yielding the initiative, skipping the Boots of Quickness, having an Antimagic Amulet, a Regeneration Ring, and/or a Luck Pendent. Facing C'tis I'd also consider replacing the Wraith Sword with some one handed weapon and either a Vine|Char|Luck shield.

Everyone makes mistakes, no big deal, but IMHO subpar play doesn't make for a good example of the (supposed) weakness of Super Combatants, nor does it support your opinion that SCs are not efficient.

As a side note, casting quickness costs an Ice Devil much less than 20 fatigue, and is well worth the 10 gem savings. Winged or Messenger Boots are much better for IDs than Quickness boots.

[ January 09, 2004, 02:17: Message edited by: Jasper ]

[Windreaper]

Ok, I suppose I could add my two cents here since the topic is sort of close to my heart.

First, I seriously dislike trampling supercombatants mainly due to fatigue issues. They're just too darn easy to lose. Also, high mr and some reinvigoration are a must with any supercombatant, wraith sword or not. Boots of the messenger is especially good for ice devil since he doesn't really need the slot for anything else. Getting hit by sleep/stellar cascades/sleep vines and such can otherwise really ruin your day. Antimagic amulet is bare minimum mr boost you should get. I'd consider starshine skullcap mandatory, however.

As people mentioned before, supercombatants should be used with an army because they're just too easy to lose - spells like wind ride and mind hunt, for example, can put hurt to single commanders no matter who they are. Also, with an army you usually have access to Relief which really helps to keep your SC alive.

EQ I use with Ice Devils.

Weapons: wraith sword, blood thorn (low dmg but allows for a shield)
Shields: Not a big issue since they're nowadays downgraded but with blood thorn I'd probably use the lucky coin/lead shield (vine shield and eye shield are also good for special occasions).
Helmets: spirit helmet, horror helmet, starshine skullcap (again, depending on how much mr I need, usually the latter) expensive gemwise 99,9% of the time, however). Fire helmet and wraith crown are also ok if you're _really_ swimming in gems.
Armor: elemental hauberk, rainbow armor, hydra skin armor or alternatively shadow cloak/bless shirt if you got no prot issues or invulnerability cloak if you got absolutely no other uses for gems :PP
Boots: boots of the messenger, flying boots (again, unless I'm using rainbow armor I often get the messenger boots)
Misc: regen ring, antimagic amulet, luck pendant (all these are pretty standard, if I get regen through hydra skin, for example I replace regen ring with luck pendant but consider the first two mandatory unless the SC already regens).

EDIT: decided to add example ID for early game (all items const 4)

Weapon: wraith sword
Helmet: horror helm
Armor: elemental hauberk
Boots: boots of the messenger
Misc1: regen ring
Misc2: antimagic amulet

The result is a bit weak in the mr department (22) but otoh it got full elemental immunity, high prot and some reinvigoration to fend of extra fatigue from the hauberk. Later in the game you should really try to upgrade him to stand up to nasty summons and such.

Later game ID:

Weapon: blood thorn
Shield: lucky coin
Armor: elemental hauberk
Helmet: starshine skullcap
Boots: boots of the messenger
Misc1: regen ring
Misc2: antimagic amulet

mr is slightly higher. Use of shield increased prot and defence and introduced luck with only a slight reduction in damage. If facing magic-heavy nations you could consider exchanging either the armor or shield for the mr Versions (lead shield, rainbow armor).

[ January 09, 2004, 05:32: Message edited by: Windreaper ]

[Jasper]

Good example! Interesting that you consider the Starshine Skullcap mandatory, although with the new power of Paralyze I can begin to see why.

IMHO you can still use Ice Devils solo for raiding or taking on small forces (just not full armies). The trick is to move lots of scouts with them, which you then unstealth as chaff.

Now if only we could draw Wendigo into the discussion... I'd love to hear his thoughts on Super Combatants, especially in Dom 2.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Windreaper:
EQ I use with Ice Devils.

Agree on every point, except the Messenger boots. Flying is an awesome ability to get on Ice devils (more for strategical than tactical reasons). I was fond of starshine skullcaps and rainbow armors for my SCs in Doms 1.

An idea that might be worth trying: give your IDs Bone armors (those with builtin Soul Vortex) - they're expensive but as long as there's a living creature in the vicinity you've got fatigue recovery even if unconscious. And that might win you a battle even if paralyzed.